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Paul
29 Mar 2015, 04:52pm
I am looking to rebalance the knockback on the server, I don't want to be too drastic with the changes but I do want zombies to not feel as though they are constantly being sent flying back across the map when they get hit with a negev in the head.

What are peoples general views on the current state of knockback in the server?

Which guns do you feel are over/under powered?

What would you nerf/buff?

Agent_Wesker
29 Mar 2015, 05:31pm
Negev OP, pls nerf

Shotguns pls buff as they cant be sprayed and require some aiming / thought

Rifles, reduce ammo or block completely

P90, buff slightly

Hambo
29 Mar 2015, 06:35pm
I feel that knockback should be reduced at a very marginally small amount.
In the current state of the mod, zombies still win a decent amount of rounds due to wall/door-hugging humans & trolls.

If this is possible, I would like to suggest that knockback be lowered on CT sided maps like DangerousWaters & BoatEscape while maps like Doom or ShroomForest be kept intact.

Unrelated essay post about increase/decrease in ammo clips in spoiler.
I feel like I put too much opinion and thought into it to delete it. :(

My Sort-of-Redundant Opinions on the Guns but Also Revised
- For reference, my knockback (KB) scale is: Barely KB, Below Average KB, Average KB, Good KB, Great KB, OP KB

MP9 & Mac10
KB Scale: Barely KB
Personal Opinion: Definitely needs buff.
I feel like it should move as fast as pistols with a slight default ammo clip increase or have it's default ammo clip doubled. The KB on the guns = BAD. They're just mobile pea shooters.. If knockback is lowered, these guns will most likely become obsolete.

PP-Bizon
KB Scale: Below Average KB
Personal Opinion: Needs buff if Negev is nerfed. If it would allow me to move as fast as a pistol, that'd be great or maybe 70 ammo clip instead of 64? :)
This gun barely beats MP9 & Mac10 for KB.

UMP-45
KB Scale: Great or OP KB
Personal Opinion: Definitely needs buff.
Needs more default ammo clip in this gun. I feel like 25 is not enough to justify looking at this gun since it is not viable in defending against 2+ zombies thanks to low firing rate.

Negev
KB Scale: OP KB
Personal Opinion: Nerfing it to 120 instead of having the default 150 would be nice. It's already OP in almost every aspect and it'll still be a superior gun as long as its ammo is 100+. I think some players who have an extremely heavy reliance on the Negev may be hostile with the nerf though.

AWP
KB Scale: OP KB but OPx3 KB if the user is a pro.
Personal Opinion: Needs limitations.
I've read in another discussion of members wanting to limit this gun. I support that. Maybe 3 AWPs max or 1 for every 10+ members(?)
Too many AWPers really messes up the gameplay for the rest that actually try. :/
If you can ban depending on maps, would love to see it banned on maps that have bosses/multiple levels + bosses.

P90
KB Scale: Good or Great KB
Personal Opinion: Needs a small/average buff if Negev is nerfed.
I don't think this gun would compare in KB vs Negev. If Negev gets nerfed, buffing the P90 a bit would be a good decision.

Famas
KB Scale: Average KB although I have not extensively tested it
Personal Opinion: Definitely needs buff.
Maybe have 30 ammo clip or the same default ammo clip as a Galil?


Nova
KB Scale: Good KB
Sawed-Off
KB Scale: Great KB
Mag-7
KB Scale: Good or Great KB
Personal Opinions: Definitely needs buff.
I agree with Wesker. The pump shotties can't be sprayed and they lack crowd control. At best, this gun can only defend well against 1-2 zombies.
Increase in default ammo clips would be nice.

XM1014
KB Scale: Good KB
Personal Opinion: Needs buff.
While this gun can sort of spray, the reload time still takes too long. A small increase in its default ammo clip would be nice.

M4A1-S
KB Scale: Great KB
Personal Opinion: Definitely needs buff.
Default ammo clip is bad. Please buff to 30. It's only 20 for competitive and normal game modes. ZE is a mod so I don't think the 20 per clip should apply to ZE.

Other guns receive a "No Comment" from me.



I vote to keep the rifles and the rest of the guns (not AWP) to be usable by all players. Rifles don't really deal that much KB vs Negev in my opinion but they deal pretty average to good KB.
I feel like restricting certain gun(s) could cause some resentment among the current player base.

Overall, zombies still win a lot of the rounds even at this KB but I can see the frustration of being knocked back half a mile away. :P

Black Rain
29 Mar 2015, 07:02pm
I gotta agree that the negev is overpowered but its still heavily relied upon on certain maps such as mako, frostdrake..etc. Reduction in ammo and some firepower would be good for it.

I used the P90 sometimes and its pretty good too so maybe a buff would be good for it if the negev gets nerfed.

The common rifles such as the AK47 and M4's are really good but I dont use it often thanks to the negev being op. I agree with Hambo that the M4A1-S needs to have an increase in ammo because 20 is way too limited in holding off hordes.

For the Bizon, I have no idea how that well works but I do see people use it and probably because of the ammo size and I'm guessing less heavier to run with.

phantom153
29 Mar 2015, 09:40pm
yeah the negev is the most used weapon the bizon is fairly decent as it has a decent rate of fire and ammo capacity. the shotguns are basically useless so increased ammo and knockback for shotguns and increased ammo for rifles other than awp of course.

Z3r0 M4ni4c
30 Mar 2015, 12:17am
I have to disagree with you all on the shotgun knockback.
I Use the Nova a lot lately and it's all about aiming!

When you shoot a headshot on the zombie you can easily shoot of 1000 HP or more.
I even made it to 3900 hp in a single shot, so saying it isnt powerfull enough is just wrong.

Also on the knockback you're wrong. Same thing as the power of the shot on the head.
If you aim right you can launch a zombie way back, but it's different because of the hitboxes.

I remember in the CSS days that you could easily shoot headshots, now a days on csgo you can't.
So no offence, but it's pretty balanced gameplay to me.
I see people lose more, then winning.

The only thing that should be balanced is to lower down the knockback on knives, thats the problem lately.
People find it funny to knivelaunch the zombie's into the crowd, instead of shooting them back.
Maby on the negev you could lower it down to 135 or 140.
Don't lower it down to much, maps like Frostdrake, mako, LOTR, Puto and more are hard enough already and if we are going to lower down the negev you will lose more then rounds.

Ok i'm a fan of the negev, but i would agree a little with you guys if only the knives would be lowered.
So think about the heavy maps how hard it is to beat, when you don't have negev's as a backup to support and defend.

one last thing. It's not only the negev that launchen zombie's, more weapons do this if you just aim the right way.

Jazz
30 Mar 2015, 02:10am
Unlike Hambo's detailed and perhaps more exclusive post, I just look at the most commonly used weapons. Those are Shotgun, Machine gun, AWP and P90. Depending on the map, I choose one of these 4 so I have a fairly decent variety of weapon selection. Changing too many weapon settings would be like changing weapons for competitive mod, we see pro's use m4/ak 90% of the time. Just because they don't use mp7 i.e. doesn't mean they should buff it in damage dealt and improve its recoil. I think thats that, different weapons shines in different game mods. As for knockback:

Shotgun: I don't know what you guys are talking about but I agree with Z3r0, shotgun knockback is OP as hell, atleast if you've got good aim to get headshots. Torso shots knockback are fine but if you could somehow decrease the knockback to make it like 1/10 of what it is now in headshot that would be good.

P90: Excellent weapon that fits most maps, but my personal opinion is that it needs a slight overall nerf. Due to its great recoil and decent mag, its already too good to be combined with above-the-average-knockback which we right now have on our server.

AWP: Oh this needs nerfing, overall. Headshots could do 2/3 of current. Torso like 4/5. I agree on restriction for this weapon on boss maps and such. Other than that, I disagree on limiting amounts of AWP/team. Let people use the weapon of their liking.

Negev: Two things can be done here. Either worsen recoil or nerf this beast. To not mess with valve default too much I'd say nerf knockback a little.

About zombies going flying it depends on the map. Some maps have slopes where if you shoot the zombie the slope sends it somehow flying. Disabling knife knockback is a big no for me, now that we have the plugin to show failknifers/tkers. It gives entertainment to the game. By the way zombies should win like 80% of the time.

Z3r0 M4ni4c
30 Mar 2015, 03:33am
One thing i have to add to this.... The only reason i can think of to rebalance the knockback... Is only affective when people learn to Work together.
When everybody does Teamwork on the server can you should rebalance.
No offence but now we only have stupid people on the server that don't know how to play zombie escape.
Only a few pro players know what to do, even if we fail on the funniest way we keep on trying.

So before we start re-balancing the knockback. First start learning people how-to play zombie escape in the proper way

Vy
30 Mar 2015, 05:33am
Negev: It's a really fun gun to use, though it is a little OP, however nerfing it could cause certain problems on maps that are extremely hard to beat, like frostdrake. If anything, the knockback should be decreased by a little, if possible, only for the headshots as they really are insane.

SMG weapons: I feel that they are completely useless. I used the bizon and it's nowhere near as good as the negev, probably even worse than TEC-9. I think that both the P90 and the Bizon could use a bit more ammo, like 90-100 for the bizon and around 70-80 for the P-90. I don't really remember the knockbacks on these weapons because I haven't used them in ages.

Rifles: The AK, AWP and M4 (also the other rarely used rifles) should be restricted. They are outright useless. The AWP is very annoying on maps like helms deep and mines of moria, because you can fuck up your team by shooting the zombie up a ramp and into the castle. On other maps its often just a bad weapon to pick up because you can't hold with it at all.

Shotguns: I think you could increase the shotgun ammo by a bit, but the knockback should stay the way it is, because it's already very high (especially if a zombie hits a ramp, he goes flying away).

Nades/Knife: What I'd really like to see is that nades would do more damage to the zombie. Not sure what the damage should be though. It would make for some funny moments when you blowaway half the zombie team. :3 The right-click knife stab should be nerfed abit, but I don't really see how it's going to change anything. You can still knife the zombie towards your team. To be fair, you can just shoothim towards them, so it's not like it's going to fix all the teamkilling (or accidental teamkilling) that's going on.

Other pistols (not TEC-9 and Elites): Currently they are terribad and useless. Could try adding ammo to some of them to make them a more viable choice.

Hambo
30 Mar 2015, 05:36am
z3r0 Jazz;
Me and Wesker didn't really talk much about zombie knockback though. I only gave my personal opinion on the KB. xD
We're mostly talking about the lack of spray & crowd control and how a shotgunner can get mobbed easily if (s)he is going against 3+ zombies. :P

Yes, shotgun can have OP KB if aimed right but the chances of that happening is probably once every 4th shot at best for an average player. A pro shotgunner can do more, but can still be overwhelmed by 3+ zombies once he runs out of ammo.
I just want to see a buff in ammo clip, not KB. :(

And I agree. I notice a chunk of players are wall-huggers/trolls whenever I play that often doesn't help out.
These same players often increase the difficulty for the ones that actually want to win, which is why I still support a slight and small KB nerf.
If it is possible to individually nerf certain gun KBs, then I would support nerfing AWP KB & Negev KB.

I agree with Vy's assessment with the knife knockback. Players will always find other ways to troll or keep the zombie away from them, even if it means shooting them ahead. :(
I don't mind if the pistols would get slightly buffed in ammo clip (not tec-9) to allow players more variety instead of sticking to tec-9 all the time. I'd love to use my P2000 more often if it gets buffed ammo clip. :D

Z3r0 M4ni4c
30 Mar 2015, 06:41am
Hambo First of all, the mention doesn't work on me if you don't use my full nickname :p

This thread is more about the slightly adjustment of the knockback talk, then talking about the experience of the playerbase we have. :wink:

I still stay with my statement i gave earlier... Just leave it this way for now..
If they can adjust the hitbox knockback on headshots then i agree with a slight adjustment on the negev.
But if this is not possible, then DON'T.
You'll destroy the population and the reputation we now have.

And why we destroy that....because people can't hold and defend anymore like they use to back in the old days.
They'll lose rounds and eventually stop playing because they can't win anymore.
This is all caused by the lack of defence by other players.

So like i said.... Teach people how to play Zombie Escape... Show them how to defend / hold positions and work as a team...
If you do that then adjust the knockback, because you have a certain amount of pro players that can hold and work together...
I know this can be done! I've seen it in action when i tried and people eventually saw that listening to the people that are average/pro players works better and creates fun on the server... Then not listening at all. Just take the lead on the mic and try out!

Now its just a small group that defence and others run around like chickens and then blame others for not defending.

Pan32
30 Mar 2015, 06:51am
Holy shit the essays.
Just wanted to drop a little note related to headshots, specially the awp headshots: it has to do with the gun itself, the game itself. At the start I didn't think I could do anything about it, but I believe I can make it slightly better than it is at the moment

Z3r0 M4ni4c
30 Mar 2015, 07:39am
Holy shit the essays.
Just wanted to drop a little note related to headshots, specially the awp headshots: it has to do with the gun itself, the game itself. At the start I didn't think I could do anything about it, but I believe I can make it slightly better than it is at the moment

That would help a lot if that's possible Pan32

Hambo
30 Mar 2015, 08:08am
Z3r0 M4ni4c; I thought the mention would work for shortened xD But now I know. :D

I wasn't sure if the discussion is only about knockback for the weapons since Paul also asked questions about guns being underpowered/overpowered and what we'd like to see nerfed/buffed, so I figured it also meant whether there should be an increase/decrease ammo clips for guns (still the same as buff/nerfing). I apologize for the unrelated post in the thread and will shove my post into a spoiler so people don't have to read it unless curious. :)

As a player, I'm not sure of what our server technicians can do/edit. I only assumed that our server technicians can only edit global KB and that it's not possible to edit KB of individual guns at the moment. Which is why most of my suggestions ended up leaning towards increasing/lowering ammo clips. xD

I agree that nerfing default ammo clip of Negev may piss off a lot of casual players. :(

I do take to the mic to lead at times and I often let players know when to fall back and where to defend. But.. it's a bit hard to keep track of wallhuggers, trolls, and those who just prefer not to listen when the zombie horde is trying to kill me while I'm defending with the players that actually listen. xD I usually play on the server when Admins aren't on/active so that makes it all the harder on me. :P Plus.. I enjoy knifing zombies 1 on 1. xD


I still strongly support the AWP limitations and if possible, lower KB on it too. :)
AWPs really bring nothing to the table in multi level boss & boss maps so banning it in those maps would be awesome.
I also support nerfing KB of Negev like Z3r0.

Punky
30 Mar 2015, 10:38am
-Lower overall knockback (slightly), knife knockback (not much)
-Limit awps on boss/not huge open space maps
-(Not in the topic, but block on atix, dangerous waters, panic pls)
-M4a1 clip = 30, ump = 30-35
-(Aswell not in the topic, but 1 zombie/10 players on maps like dangerous waters or atix)
-Might set different knockback for different maps (again lower on waters or atix ,maps that kinda are way to ct sided)

Paul
30 Mar 2015, 10:52am
Lots of interesting takes on things here, some things which I should point out are:

-I have no interest in changing the clip size on weapons, they should remain how they are in CS:GO.
-Not looking to set knockback on a per map basis, im sure there is but its a lot of extra work that would be require to keep this maintained.
-Not adding block to certain maps, confuses new players and they think the server is broken.

Currently looking at lowering the knockback on the negev, awp and knife. I should also stress that I am not looking at overhauling all weapons, I only want to push through minor changes. I will re-read the thread later on before any changes are made so feel free to keep posting as it will all be taken into consideration.

Agent_Wesker
30 Mar 2015, 03:38pm
Changing the clip size wouldn't fix the issue although it would make everything annoying. I agree with Paul.

Each weapon should have its own knockback setting in the config, we can tweak this to get it just right.

Also Z3r0 M4ni4c players will only learn if you push them to. I used to exclusively use M249 in CS:S until the server I played on restricted it, then I learned to be good with P90 and enjoyed the extra challenge.

Jazz
30 Mar 2015, 04:49pm
This may not be 100% relevant but if you see a map being overly CT sided or T sided, just make a map removal suggestion. Think outside the box, why should we apply a bunch of changes to weapons and such for a map just because that map is unbalanced? There are tons of maps out there so in reality, we don't need to change settings too much. Know what I mean? But yeah, our server has above-the-average knockback and below-the-average skilled players so our situation is kinda tricky. However with guys like Paul dealing with tech stuff such as knockback and guys like Z3r0 M4ni4c dealing with the playerbase's skillset, we'll do just fine!

Z3r0 M4ni4c
31 Mar 2015, 12:08am
Changing the clip size wouldn't fix the issue although it would make everything annoying. I agree with Paul.

Each weapon should have its own knockback setting in the config, we can tweak this to get it just right.

Also Z3r0 M4ni4c players will only learn if you push them to. I used to exclusively use M249 in CS:S until the server I played on restricted it, then I learned to be good with P90 and enjoyed the extra challenge.

Just like you said.... You learned.

I agree with what Jazz is saying, but also Punky is dealing with the playerskillset and other admins are following us.
I know i use my big mouth in the server and thats to teach them how to play escape.

Sometimes it works and sometimes it fails.
People will only use different weapons when they learned how to defend... Eventually people will use the old funny p90 guns.
But still we need the negev on very difficult maps like Mako and frostdrake.
Especially Frostdrake is a difficult one since we didnt beat it yet!

So untill we got a decent amount of playerskilled people you shouldn't tweak too much with the knockback.

Jazz
31 Mar 2015, 02:59am
Of course he is, thus why I said "guys like" ;) (im better than u z3r0 btw)

Agent_Wesker
31 Mar 2015, 05:50pm
Just like you said.... You learned.

I agree with what Jazz is saying, but also Punky is dealing with the playerskillset and other admins are following us.
I know i use my big mouth in the server and thats to teach them how to play escape.

Sometimes it works and sometimes it fails.
People will only use different weapons when they learned how to defend... Eventually people will use the old funny p90 guns.
But still we need the negev on very difficult maps like Mako and frostdrake.
Especially Frostdrake is a difficult one since we didnt beat it yet!

So untill we got a decent amount of playerskilled people you shouldn't tweak too much with the knockback.

If we never challenge anyone to learn, how could they actually improve?

The problem comes from the fact that 2 - 3 people can hold for an entire team due to current settings. This means the majority doesn't even need to shoot their gun.

Jazz
31 Mar 2015, 06:08pm
If we never challenge anyone to learn, how could they actually improve?

The problem comes from the fact that 2 - 3 people can hold for an entire team due to current settings. This means the majority doesn't even need to shoot their gun.

Very true, me and Paul held off like 25 zombies on rooftop. Also me and Vy won on vodoo islands 2v13. Those scenarios just cant happen... However don't worry guys, I'm sure guys like my portugese abuser friend Pan32 and long time member SpikedRocker will handle this issue with style. #MakeZeRougher (http://www.steamgamers.com/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=MakeZeRougher) #ShowAppreciationToHigherUps (http://www.steamgamers.com/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=ShowAppreciationToHigherUps) !

SpikedRocker
31 Mar 2015, 10:39pm
Honestly, this generation of gamers has nothing on mine. We never asked for things to be "made easier". That was most of the fun. Trying to beat something that consistently was a bitch. Back when I first was playing it was a bit of a rare thing when humans won. Mainly cause we had more fun watching epic fail nades and dumbasses on edges. But thats the thing, we really didn't care who won as long as everyone enjoyed it. That was ZM and thats why it made it this far.

I almost feel that us being able to change knockback is just plain cheating. Both cheating the game and the player. Whats next give no clip to humans? (/s)

Z3r0 M4ni4c
1 Apr 2015, 12:02am
If we never challenge anyone to learn, how could they actually improve?

The problem comes from the fact that 2 - 3 people can hold for an entire team due to current settings. This means the majority doesn't even need to shoot their gun.

Try and hold Frostdrake , Mako , Indiana jones, Puto with just 2-3 people if you can beat those maps with 2 or 3 persons against a horde of zombies of like 30 players then we talk.
Easy maps like rooftop should be removed. Here's the reason why.


Honestly, this generation of gamers has nothing on mine. We never asked for things to be "made easier". That was most of the fun. Trying to beat something that consistently was a bitch. Back when I first was playing it was a bit of a rare thing when humans won. Mainly cause we had more fun watching epic fail nades and dumbasses on edges. But thats the thing, we really didn't care who won as long as everyone enjoyed it. That was ZM and thats why it made it this far.

I almost feel that us being able to change knockback is just plain cheating. Both cheating the game and the player. Whats next give no clip to humans? (/s)

Just like SpikedRocker said.
Its funnier to see people fail and try to beat the map with the standard settings of the server.
Then to tweak it.

Most of the easy maps are already been removed, mainly because it gets plain boring to watch.
You only need to run hold one point and your done.
I'm missing the action and the challenge you had in the old days.
You really want to make it rough on the server? .... Restrict AWP / Negev / m249 see if you can beat the maps then.
I remember 2010 we had some sort of setting too.
The M249 was restricted and the awp too.
Only weapons you could choose we're Rifles / SMG / shotguns.

Because like SpikedRocker said back then it was rare that humans one a round.

If you look now, people occassionly beat ze_helms_deep.
In the past it was rare if you made it to the door inside the castle/building.
Now a days its rare if zombies win.

Time to take back the challenge from the past i say!

Vy
1 Apr 2015, 03:33am
Very true, me and Paul held off like 25 zombies on rooftop. Also me and Vy won on vodoo islands 2v13. Those scenarios just cant happen... However don't worry guys, I'm sure guys like my portugese abuser friend Pan32 and long time member SpikedRocker will handle this issue with style. #MakeZeRougher (http://www.steamgamers.com/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=MakeZeRougher) #ShowAppreciationToHigherUps (http://www.steamgamers.com/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=ShowAppreciationToHigherUps) !I won alone on liliciana vs ~15ish zombies. I held off like 7 zombies alone on rooftop. It's wayyyy to ezy.

Agent_Wesker
1 Apr 2015, 05:40pm
On most maps what I said holds true, Frostdrake is the exception because it was made with teamwork in mind. It's also one of the very few open ended maps. Any situation where the zombies are coming directly at you can be dealt with easily (maps with tight hold points or hallways).

A possible solution would be to restrict Negev / AWP on most maps except for Frostdrake / Mako / Skyrim.

Vy
2 Apr 2015, 03:20am
Restricting negev is silly.

Z3r0 M4ni4c
2 Apr 2015, 04:24am
Thats what people said in 2009 about the m249 as well. Still we did it back then and it worked.
We kept the population and even got more famous.

Elemental
2 Apr 2015, 04:59am
Tbh I think it might be worth a try, could make it more challenging instead of everyone going full negev.
Tho restricting negev on mako is a baaad idea x.x; wouldn't make it past the boss on hard/extreme if ur unlucky xD