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G-Man
18 Jun 2008, 07:50am
Some servers allow the Para, or otherwise known as machine gun. In most maps, this turns around most of a chance for zombies to win right over to humans. I mean 1 dude could just hold off an army of zombies with a machine gun, its that powerful. Now considering most times, theres about 10 humans in one spot, and most have a para, the zombies have no chance. I remember when it was disabled a while back, the gameplay was much more fair for both sides, not just complete humans raping zombies.
For those who are gonna say "it has slow reload time", its reload time is a second more than other realoads, i timed it. And when you have other people firing when you reload, it covers it up. If only rifles and other weapons are allowed, itd be much more fair, gives zombies a chance and humans still have artilary to use.

And if your against this, because you think its fun getting triple kills against zombies, think of when your a zombie and you cant do shit because 20 humans have machine guns and are spraying bullet all over you and you just have to give in to loss.

SST map could be a fairer map and less human sided if the humans werent given machine guns, as it already is completely human dominated... Your just feeding a full shark food, they dont need it. Most maps that are played regularly lean towards the humans anyway.

SATAN
18 Jun 2008, 08:20am
I really dont think thats true, exept SST (and the reason that is, is because the map is so open you can see the zombie coming from a mile away so they cant sneak up on you) most maps are usualy pretty balanced.

Another thing, the only maps i buy machine guns is SST, Space station and Blackmesa, other than those maps i find it useless.

2 guys with machine guns can hold a bunch of zombies, but im pretty sure 2 guys with P90s could too.

G-Man
18 Jun 2008, 08:43am
Well, its alos enabled on napalm which is extremely stupid, in maps like cbble, zombies have no chance when humans are on the boxes and all have paras, i dont see why it has to be enabled its completely outraging and stupid. Rifles are powerful but not as stupid, reloading was what helped zombies get humans, but with a 100 bullets per clip, zombie usually die in that clip. Plus the other people around you who have it. It should definitly be disable on sst, no questions about it. But why make the gameplay so unfair.

Maxwelldon
18 Jun 2008, 09:11am
If you so want to get rid of Para, aka Machinegun - just leave the server - no one forces you to play.. I agree it's unfair sometimes but most often the reload takes forever and that is what gives zombies chance to even knive you..
Personally I'd limit how many guys per team can get it instead of disabling the gun if there should be any restrictions since I keep hearing people moan, cry and whine about the gun - yet quite a lot wants to keep it

G-Man
18 Jun 2008, 09:35am
thats really a stupid post, im not crying or whining, im giving a suggestion and getting opinions, im creating an arguement and backing it up. First off, you dont tell someone to just leave if they arent happy about one thing, instead you give advice to see if it can be handled differently. Ive been playing on ZM longer than you and longer than most admins. And maybe you dont know but the para used to be disabled, and for good reason, and i dont know when it was enabled but now being a zombie has gone from being cool and fun to boring and miserable. However, you make a good idea with the restriction limit. Maybe a few per team. A lot of people like it, because they only think about when they are humans, and how they can get triple kills and survive, more rational people look at the fact that a lot of times they will be zombies and when they are, they usually just have to stand there, or run to try to get the humans, and completely fail.

Italian Jew
18 Jun 2008, 09:43am
How about limiting the number of Paras on the map? It is completely fair for the zombies if only a few humans have it as they need a while to reload and are inaccurate most of the time. Limiting it would prevent whoring of the gun by nubs who rely on the quantity of bullets of quality of shots.

G-Man
18 Jun 2008, 09:51am
How about limiting the number of Paras on the map? It is completely fair for the zombies if only a few humans have it as they need a while to reload and are inaccurate most of the time. Limiting it would prevent whoring of the gun by nubs who rely on the quantity of bullets of quality of shots.

i agree, but honestly, just getting rid of them isnt that bad. Honestly folks, its not like in cs its either machine gun or pistol, theres always rifles, shotguns, smgs. Rifles are powerful and kinda fun too. Rather than para which is spray and get three cheap kills. But you guys need to really think about the zombies because being a zombie isnt the most exciting thing to play and why ruin it even more by adding cheap weapons to the human side.

Red
18 Jun 2008, 09:54am
Maybe make them an admin/donator only weapon. Hmmmm

trakaill
18 Jun 2008, 10:41am
tampon speaks wisely it would limit the amount!! I kinda agree with gman tho killing a zombie with one clip is frustrating. I would not mind seeing machine gun out. But id ont mind them so much

GrimExistence
18 Jun 2008, 11:03am
that be cool

Tcp-Kill
18 Jun 2008, 11:31am
that would be fucking awesome

have a BOOM GUN THAT IS A ROCKET THAT DOES 999999999999999999999999999999999999999 DAMAGE ON THE TARGET!!! HEADSHOT!!

James
18 Jun 2008, 11:36am
Or how about we change the buy script so that when they try to buy paras, they end up with only a knife and no other weapons :P

SATAN
18 Jun 2008, 11:39am
The only map i see where the argument of zombies being annoyed by machine gun implies is Starship troopers....

I really dont see what other map creates an advantage, exept maybe the original space station.

Also i like the idea of making them supporter and admin weapons lol, kinda unfair but at least we wont have a bunch of noobs buying it every round.

Eldest
18 Jun 2008, 02:06pm
Limit to 1-3 and done..

LitKey
18 Jun 2008, 02:16pm
I say keep 'em. Their fucking cone of fire is all over the place anyway.

Itch
18 Jun 2008, 02:35pm
I say keep 'em. Their fucking cone of fire is all over the place anyway.

I agree.. I never buy one for that reason.

Ambulancia
18 Jun 2008, 02:38pm
next thread will be "hey we should remove AWP because we can shoot zombies from halfway across the map" and the following thread "napalms are just unfair because they incapacitate the zombie's speed, thus enabling humans to rape a handicapped zombie"

keep the para, i have NEVER been in a game where more than half the people have a para. and if they DO, it doesnt mean they are skilled enough to kill a zombie in a single clip.

Maxwelldon
18 Jun 2008, 02:45pm
next thread will be "hey we should remove AWP because we can shoot zombies from halfway across the map" and the following thread "napalms are just unfair because they incapacitate the zombie's speed, thus enabling humans to rape a handicapped zombie"

keep the para, i have NEVER been in a game where more than half the people have a para. and if they DO, it doesnt mean they are skilled enough to kill a zombie in a single clip.
Agree. Also if we get whole lot of people whine of it, limit them to certain amount instead of disabling the gun.. Just there is people wanting use then and at the moment I see only minority giving yells of the Para

VirDeBello
18 Jun 2008, 04:08pm
I think limiting it or make it a weapon only donators or admins can use is a good idea. Too many paras on the map makes it insanely hard to win. In my personal opinion paras are cheaper then autosnipers, I rather have autosnipers back then have to deal with paras.

Lux
18 Jun 2008, 05:26pm
In most escape maps, Machine gunners really make the game a pain. One machine gunner isn't exactly a massive problem, but the thing is that there is atleast 10 of these rank hunters, some with awps too.


Worst map for this ...Rooftop Escape V2.

Ruins the entire map, too many "gay spots" and zombies have to start all over again.

I think this should be banned in the escape maps because it takes away the point that humans should escape, not hunt.

matt 187
18 Jun 2008, 05:33pm
scouts vs zombies!!!

i played it on a server once very fun!

SATAN
18 Jun 2008, 05:43pm
Lol picking rooftop escape v2 as an example is not good

Humans with only pistols would win that map.

Just leave them, the game is balanced and prefect how it is now... why change something that works?

BOOWY
18 Jun 2008, 06:10pm
Paras make a small team of humans able to survive. If we didn't have paras, I'd just flat out give up after the zombie count got to a certain number in certain maps. If you've got 3 or 4 humans on spacestation that know what they're doing at the end, they can conceivably win the map. If they didn't have paras it would be impossible. There are a few maps like this.

Funny that someone mentioned rooftop2, as that's one of the maps where I feel a para is relatively useless, at least in comparison to a shotty or a FAMAS or something. Yeah, it makes a dumbass less useless, but there are much more effective guns for that particular map. I can almost single handedly hold the zombies away from getting up to the escape door with a shotty, lord help the zombies if two or three people joined me with shotties.

G-Man
18 Jun 2008, 06:31pm
Lol picking rooftop escape v2 as an example is not good

Humans with only pistols would win that map.

Just leave them, the game is balanced and prefect how it is now... why change something that works?

LMAO, but tahst the whole thing, the game isnt fair.... Why else are so many people saying do something about it? Blackmesa and lostworld are considered the best maps we got cuz they are fair... but even now i can definitly see humans winning 75% of rounds, check the score next time your playing. Im not saying its 100% paras, but most of it. next time go in spec and look or even count how many people have a para like i did, i got 23 people out of 30.

G-Man
18 Jun 2008, 06:36pm
Paras make a small team of humans able to survive. If we didn't have paras, I'd just flat out give up after the zombie count got to a certain number in certain maps. If you've got 3 or 4 humans on spacestation that know what they're doing at the end, they can conceivably win the map. If they didn't have paras it would be impossible. There are a few maps like this.

Funny that someone mentioned rooftop2, as that's one of the maps where I feel a para is relatively useless, at least in comparison to a shotty or a FAMAS or something. Yeah, it makes a dumbass less useless, but there are much more effective guns for that particular map. I can almost single handedly hold the zombies away from getting up to the escape door with a shotty, lord help the zombies if two or three people joined me with shotties.

Except, when in an escape map will you find only 2 people fighting to live? not often, people usually move through the escape maps, (which are mainly linear) as one big group. And bullshit, ive seen 2 people at a poor camping spot hold off zombies for an entire round plenty of times its not like, 3 people with m4s have no chance and are gonna die or oh wait, they have paras, they can sit back and relax cuz now they will definitly live. You just proved how powerful they, they can turn around a humans chances of survival completely and give the zombies no hope.

BOOWY
18 Jun 2008, 10:02pm
The issue isn't black or white for me. I agree that it sucks balls when there are 20 paras firing at one or two zombies, completely concur, but it's total epic win when two or three guys or even just one guy can pull a win by himself, and no other gun in the game gives you that option under normal circumstances. I've done it on lostworld a few times, and there is no better feeling playing an escape map than when you win as a one man army, it's like being in a zombie B-movie, fuckin' great.

Marquis Posa
19 Jun 2008, 01:21am
how about just reducing the amount of bullets to ~300, so people who spray will run out of ammo fast.

Gumpy
19 Jun 2008, 03:45am
In sst over half the people usually buy a para. It wouldn't be so bad, but most just camp the outer wall ledge and steal every single kill. So yeah, we should restrict it or remove it.

SATAN
19 Jun 2008, 05:35am
Edit: Deleted the whole post.

I vote to restrict it to 2-4 per team.


Don't delete though, i never understood deleting weapons.... its part of the freaking game... just play with it.

Irish Rebel
19 Jun 2008, 06:20am
hey ive got an idea for that problem!
howsbout only 2 paras are enabled?
so the 2.first guys r lucky and get para and the rest can fuck them self?
so there r only 2 paras enabled for the ZM servers?

ru§§iangang§ter
19 Jun 2008, 07:04am
welll how about make the semi-auto sniper, AND para admin\ supporter only?

G-Man
19 Jun 2008, 08:00am
Its really the number of bullets that will make the gun poweful or not, not the quality of shots. Cuz any bullet that hits a zombie will make it go back some distance, so a hundred bullets make a zombie go back like 20 feet. Rifles are actually probably more damaging, and accurate, but they are fair because you have to reload more often. And seriously, if a weapon can make a human survive in a spot by himself, then you know its too powerful, unless its just a damn good camping spot. but zombie mod used to be more team oriented where players would have to go to a spot with other humans, or theyd be fucked by themselves. Humans have camping spots/ guns/ nades, and zombies have speed/ knives. And the speed doesnt even matter when 6 guys are all shooting at you, making you fly back like 30 feet. So why give humans even more power than they already have?

SATAN
19 Jun 2008, 08:10am
I see what your saying G-man.

But the only scenario i could see this happen is a human camping a spot, like vents, when zombies have the ending part/nuke-safe spot.

I dont think theres a single map where a human could win all by himself.

So why care when a human holds 20 zombies in a spot where he is going to get nuked anyway.... just leave him and go to the boats/chopper/bunker.

BOOWY
19 Jun 2008, 08:58am
I dont think theres a single map where a human could win all by himself.

From start to finish, probably not, but I've won lostworld on my own holding the last base from 7 or 8 zombies trying to jump from the tower onto the roof, and then I've held the plane when it goes over the power station's tower from a horde of zombies by myself too. That shit is epic. It doesn't happen very often, but it is possible. I've also held the chopper on ATIX_helicopter over the last roof with a para by myself too against a crap load of zombies. Impossible with any other gun.

SATAN
19 Jun 2008, 09:23am
Yeah lostworld could happen but thats probably because 70% of the players die, if they were all zombies they would probably get you.

As for ATIX i dont know dude.... server is 40 players.

1 human holding 39 zombies? i might happen only once every 10000 times we play ther map.

Ambulancia
19 Jun 2008, 09:50am
i say, if it isn't broke, then don't fix it. i usually get turned into zombie EVERY ROUND and maybe a few times when i was ganged up on with paras, i thought it was a little unfair. but I WAS A ZOMBIE, who the hell has sympathy for a zombie??? it would not have made a difference if they all had pump shottys, sigs, augs, it dont frikken matter, if u get ganged up on,.. ur pretty much toast. UNLESS U WANNA BAN ALL THOSE GUNS TOO :P

i don't care who you are, 1vs1 i will rape a human if he has a machine gun and i am zombie.

No offense, but limiting a gun to an admin/supporter seems kinda wierd, seeing how u bought the right to use the gun when u bought the game.... im kinda mad that some of the guns are restricted as it is.

VirDeBello
19 Jun 2008, 11:32am
lmao you guys should have been around before when we had autosnipers and when they banned that gun.... No more 200 points on escape servers no more :sad: And thats the thing I am seeing the same results with para, people can now get to 100 easy.

Astrum
19 Jun 2008, 12:46pm
Let's ban the pump shotgun next, the knock back power plus the lightning fast reload makes it totally unfair!</sarcasm>

I say keep it. I've never had a problem with paras as a zombie. Yeah it sucks being cornered by a few guys with paras, but here's a hint: it sucks being cornered by a few guys with any guns. I'm not even a fan of limiting it but meh.

Shadowex3
19 Jun 2008, 02:29pm
This polls pointless, people aren't going to vote to restrict something that gives them an absurd advantage.

I say kick zombie health up enough so that the para can hold them off but it takes the equivalent of 300 para rounds to the head to kill them and give the starter zombie enough health so he can survive 5 people cornering him, killing the starter zombie is just retarded and ruins the whole map.

If you leave knockback the same as it is now zombies will still be held away by humans just fine, but instead of a pitiful handful of zombies surviving to the end of most rounds and being slaughtered the moment they poke around the corner the humans will actually need to keep holding them off.

Zombies will still need to work hard to get close enough to humans since the knockback will still be there, humans will need to actually run away from zombies eventually instead of just sitting there laughing at them while they drop like flies trying to jump through a tiny hole and get pinned against the far while by 3 people.

And to anyone that says it'd make the game unbalanced towards zombies: One human would still be able to outrun a few zombies forever with just about any pistol/smg, he'd just actually need to make it to the end instead of running in circles until he killed the zombies trying hopelessly to catch up to him.

VirDeBello
19 Jun 2008, 04:17pm
lol from what you guys say, we should bring back autosnipers :thumbup1:

Italian Jew
19 Jun 2008, 04:57pm
lol, they will complain once they aren't getting all their precious points and kills. I mean, who ever heard of using a weapon that takes some sort of real skill? I know some people only have the mental ability to hold down a mouse button to get kills, but eventually, they need to learn to aim a bit, maybe rely on some talent of some form.

Yes, the gun may be in the game, but the game was designed for normal CS, not zombie mod. There was no intention for people to go around whoring a weapon because it was easier to use. Restricting the weapon would prevent noob rounds from happening and level the playing field. You get $16000 every round which is generous considering you didn't earn that money. I would love to see the bitching if people had to earn their money the old fashioned way.

Maybe instead of whoring a gun and holding down a button, people can actually use strategy and teamwork to win, or is it beyond their comprehension?

QQ

Shadowex3
20 Jun 2008, 12:50am
or is it beyond their comprehension?

Absolutely. Have you been on breakfloor recently?

Marquis Posa
20 Jun 2008, 01:30am
You get $16000 every round which is generous considering you didn't earn that money. I would love to see the bitching if people had to earn their money the old fashioned way.
thats actually possible with the latest version of zombie mod (2.0.0V).
you get money when you damage/kill zombies, but THAT would be a big change of gameplay and would need a lot of testing until its balanced.

Gumpy
20 Jun 2008, 02:42am
From start to finish, probably not, but I've won lostworld on my own holding the last base from 7 or 8 zombies trying to jump from the tower onto the roof, and then I've held the plane when it goes over the power station's tower from a horde of zombies by myself too. That shit is epic. It doesn't happen very often, but it is possible. I've also held the chopper on ATIX_helicopter over the last roof with a para by myself too against a crap load of zombies. Impossible with any other gun.

That's exactly why the para should be restricted. If one person can hold out against an army of zombies then 10-20 would rape the zombies so hard that they have to lock themselves in the bathroom with soothing cream. The para should be restricted to maybe 5-8 and if you disagree then your probably a score whore. (Another option is to bring the knockback, back to normal)

SATAN
20 Jun 2008, 06:02am
From start to finish, probably not

It doesn't happen very often

1 human holding 39 zombies? i might happen only once every 10000 times we play the map.

I person cannot hold out against an army of zombies, they can hold for a short period of time, then again that doesnt happen very often either

10-20 players could rape a zombie with any guns.


And i'm gonna say it again... Why do we want to change that works.... The game is balanced now, leave it alone. AND PLEASE DONT MENTION SST CAUSE THATS 1 MAP!

LitKey
20 Jun 2008, 07:37am
The para should be restricted to maybe 5-8 and if you disagree then your probably a score whore.

If you disagree with keeping the gun enabled then you're probably a whiny pussy who cries themself to sleep because a weapon is unrestricted in an online game. See, I can do that too! :w00t:

I prefer the maximum amount of freedom for players in the game within the confines of the rules. I don't even use the autosnipers at all or the M249 that much, and I would prefer that both were unrestricted. Every gun has its strengths and weaknesses, and the M249 has more weaknesses than strengths.

Strengths:

Large ammo capacity
About the damage of comparable weapons that fire 5.56 rounds
Powerful in numbers (like about all other weapons)




And for weaknesses:

Makes you run SLOOOOOOOW
Long reload time
Bad spray pattern
Weapon model sticks out far and makes it difficult to hide with it equipped
It's just an unversatile weapon.


The M249 is a part of not only CSS, but Zombie Mod as well. If it wasn't, then the Zombie Mod team could have disabled it themselves, which obviously did not happen.

kewkew

GrayFox
20 Jun 2008, 08:40am
I used be in a clan called CSSMC and their server had SMG's, Shotguns, and Pistols. No rifles at all and I don't remember being unevenly balanced against zombies. That being said, my para looks like a Vulcan Minigun and dominates. But on SST it is very cheap, only way zombies can win is if they beat humans there or wait until they get in the ship. I just use random guns on SST, like the AUG or Scout or weak SMG.

Lux
20 Jun 2008, 09:08am
Strengths:

Large ammo capacity
About the damage of comparable weapons that fire 5.56 rounds
Powerful in numbers (like about all other weapons)


And for weaknesses:

Makes you run SLOOOOOOOW
Long reload time
Bad spray pattern
Weapon model sticks out far and makes it difficult to hide with it equipped
It's just an unversatile weapon.




Basically Litkey all the advantages of the machine gun actually matter when you are camping behind an object/ on a building, where as the weaknesses don't really matter at all, especially if you are in numbers.


It all depends on the map, on maps such as Boatescape it isn't really much of a problem where as on SST it is a MASSIVE problem.

So I dunno...I don't think there is any maps where you actually REQUIRE a machine gun, yet there is maps where the machine RUINS it....this would lead to restrictions being GOOD.

:001_smile: If you disagree you are a rank whore who thinks that hunting zombies in numbers with machine guns is skilful and fun, which... (if you don't live on planet Retardogia) is pretty obviously WrOnG

Astrum
20 Jun 2008, 09:35am
QQ

You're the ones complaining about the para, we're the ones telling you to live with it. So either you don't know what 'QQ' means or you forgot what side you're on. :wink:

I was going to post something similar to what LitKey did, but since he already did I think it's time for anecdotal evidence!

I almost never use the para in zombie escape, I never see the point. You're a slow moving target with 100 rounds between you being a badass and being completely vulnerable. I'll take my pump shotgun or TMP any day of the week over the para. At least with those I know I have a fighting chance if I'm ever on the run.

I know zombies are supposed to be mindless and eternally hungry, but you actually have to use your brains in the game and not try to eat the humans' whenever you see them. A head on assault doesn't always work, sometimes it requires finesse and subterfuge.

Furthermore, I see quite a few complaining that the para is unfair in one map, SST. Ever think it's an issue with the map, and not the gun? If you can't extend the same argument to most every map then it's probably not a problem with the gun. I personally don't care for the map - no offense to Bill - so I can't confirm or deny if the para is a problem in that map. But if you think the map is unfair towards zombies then talk to Bill about it, he's an SA here after all and I'm pretty sure that SST isn't fully done yet.

Lastly, we're mostly talking about the escape servers here, not Napalm*. On escape maps you should be on the run. Most maps have alternate paths to the end and any camping is limited to holding out for the next stage of the map (a boat, helicopter, explosion, etc...). If it's a camp at the end of the map like SST then it doesn't really matter what guns they have. Is it going to be easier to run up and knife them if a bunch of AK's, M4's, and pump shotguns are perforating you? Probably not.

*On Napalm there are different zombie classes which helps to even things out. Although maps are highly variable in fairness. The goal of Napalm is to camp to survive and zombies still win quite a lot even though the para is the most popular gun. Odd...

G-Man
20 Jun 2008, 10:37am
I used be in a clan called CSSMC and their server had SMG's, Shotguns, and Pistols. No rifles at all and I don't remember being unevenly balanced against zombies. That being said, my para looks like a Vulcan Minigun and dominates. But on SST it is very cheap, only way zombies can win is if they beat humans there or wait until they get in the ship. I just use random guns on SST, like the AUG or Scout or weak SMG.

TOtally true, i was an admin there once. And yeah, if you babies whine about the para being disabled, then go play on servers, and there are a lot of them out there like this, where rifles are disabled. They are actually more fair towards both sides...

G-Man
20 Jun 2008, 10:47am
And for weaknesses:
[LIST]
Makes you run SLOOOOOOOW
Weapon model sticks out far and makes it difficult to hide with it equipped
It's just an unversatile weapon.


LMAO, you ,pulled those out of your ass. "makes you run slow", it takes less than half a second to pull out the knife and run with that, or switch back, and newsflash, rifles make you same speed too. "weapon sticks out", when do you see someone in an escape server, or even in napalm actually in a spot hiding from zombies? never, unless they are a noob just wasting the time and making people look for him... Oh and again, rifles are same length. "unversatile" isnt a word so go figure. And yea its not a versatile weapon, but you already stated that in the other weaknesses and no weapon is versatileexcept maybe pistols.

So what you did was make it seem like the machine gun has more weakness than strengths but 3 out of 5 of those weaknesses are bs.

Lux
20 Jun 2008, 10:51am
Er Astrum SST is one of the problem maps but it isn't just that. Many maps come to mind, but it really depends on who exactly is playing.

If it is retarded rank whores who find fun in hunting 20v1 till they die so a new rounds start so they can do it again, then you have a big problem.

If you have chilled players who want fun and are willing to die to make it balanced or won't try to finish the game early then its fine.


List of Maps that are ruined by machine guns.

-SST
-Forgot the name...but its the ATIX map with the controllable Heli and the train....pyramid and that random hill near spawn are always full of about half the cts who just use awps and machine guns and you have no chance to kill them.
-Rooftop v2


Those the are ones that are in my head mainly.. I think it is a map design problem, and either you have to change the maps or limit awps/machine guns.

The server grayfox is talking about with no rifles sounds like a good idea to me. It gives zombies a fairer chance, any other advantages or disadvantages are the maps, and you should change them, but as I said before..

If you don't need machine guns in most maps but they cause problems in others, why not just disable them, or atleast restrict???

There is no time when the machine gun is needed so......might aswell

LitKey
20 Jun 2008, 11:44am
TOtally true, i was an admin there once. And yeah, if you babies whine about the para being disabled, then go play on servers, and there are a lot of them out there like this, where rifles are disabled. They are actually more fair towards both sides...

"Your opinion that is in the majority on the server network where you are a member on the Board of Directors isn't the same as my opinion, so go play on some other lame server you baby!"

That's retarded. No, I'm going to continue to play here as many others do on the best Zombie Mod server network around that has the fewest lame-ass weapons restrictions.

And from what I can tell, the only side "whining" about the M249 is the side that started this topic in the first place and that is in the minority. :)

P.S.: If you'd like this topic to remain open, cease the flame baiting.

GrayFox
20 Jun 2008, 11:57am
G-man you used to be there? I think I remmeber you, I was GrayFox there too. There for 2-3 years but it got ruined by changing server IP's too many times. Which never do that for these servers, because it always ruins it. But I agree with someone who posted above me ^^^, the atix_extinction with the pyramid, sst, and one other map. Other than that I love my my para.
http://image.hazardstrip.com/ss/skins/988b.jpg

Astrum
20 Jun 2008, 12:20pm
If it is retarded rank whores who find fun in hunting 20v1 till they die so a new rounds start so they can do it again, then you have a big problem.

It's not hard to zombie hunt. If you have a functioning gun and you have some tactics it's really easy. I've seen people zombie hunt with pistols and still win, so clearly the para isn't that huge of a problem here.

You'll also notice that some of the top ranking players on the server don't use the para (I used to be 2, but I think I'm in the 20's now). I realize that people play for rank are annoying but let's get to the core of the matter and stop with the ad hominem attacks. We're talking about why the para should be removed/restricted and so far I haven't seen a convincing argument.


If you have chilled players who want fun and are willing to die to make it balanced or won't try to finish the game early then its fine.

That's the price you pay for playing on a very popular zombie mod server. You no longer get a tight group of people who enjoy playing the game and expect roughly the same experience out of it as everyone else. There's still a group like that, but there are other people, 80 if you add up both servers when full. That's 80 people of varying maturity levels, reasons for playing, and ideas about what makes zombie mod fun. If this is a problem for you then by all means you can find a smaller server to play on. Removing or limiting the para won't fix this on the SG servers though.


-SST
-Forgot the name...but its the ATIX map with the controllable Heli and the
train....pyramid and that random hill near spawn are always full of about
half the cts who just use awps and machine guns and you have no chance to
kill them.
-Rooftop v2

The second is called atix_extinction I believe. I'll go ahead and add atix_helicopter to the list as well. both helicopter and extinction are barely escape maps. They're essentially a regular zombie mod map with an escape element tacked onto the very, very end of it. As such they don't play like regular escape maps where the zombies have many, many chances to get the humans. You basically get a bunch of humans taking pot shots at zombies, the weapon doesn't matter, the wall of bullets hitting the zombies won't go away if you remove paras.

Rooftop v2 is similar and very lopsided when it comes to balance. The humans have a huge advantage here. Although I don't think the map is ruined by the para at all on this map. The worst gun to face on this map is the pump shotgun since the rooftops, planks, and ledges are small and it's hard to dodge a shotgun blast. People will usually camp at the top of the ladders and blast zombies off when they come up. The people with rifles will make sure the zombies don't jump from the boxes to the roof. The para is actually ill-suited for this map.


If you don't need machine guns in most maps but they cause problems in others, why not just disable them, or atleast restrict???

There is no time when the machine gun is needed so......might aswell

Because the para isn't the problem, the balance is. You're removing an effect of the problem, not the cause. There's no time when I need the Mac10, and it's pretty rare that people even buy it, should we remove that too?

Italian Jew
20 Jun 2008, 12:49pm
Just restrict the gun to around 4-6 for the CT (or whatever number suits you). It would allow those dependent upon the gun to play and not bitch about it and it would lower the instances where people whore paras in the corner.

I can tell some people are devoted to their para either because they have a cool skin for it or they really can't use another gun. With a restriction, you can still use it if you buy it in time. If not, too damn bad. Grow a pair and use something else.

The problem isn't the gun itself, just when the whole server decides to buy it.

As for the maps listed where the para is ill-suited, the para can be used very effectively on those maps if you know where to use it. Having one guy guarding a plank on rooftop with a para is easy to get past. Having several with paras on the plank is a lot harder to get across, even more so than if they had shotguns.

VirDeBello
20 Jun 2008, 01:32pm
If you disagree with keeping the gun enabled then you're probably a whiny pussy who cries themself to sleep because a weapon is unrestricted in an online game. See, I can do that too! :w00t:

I prefer the maximum amount of freedom for players in the game within the confines of the rules. I don't even use the autosnipers at all or the M249 that much, and I would prefer that both were unrestricted. Every gun has its strengths and weaknesses, and the M249 has more weaknesses than strengths.

Strengths:

Large ammo capacity
About the damage of comparable weapons that fire 5.56 rounds
Powerful in numbers (like about all other weapons)




And for weaknesses:

Makes you run SLOOOOOOOW
Long reload time
Bad spray pattern
Weapon model sticks out far and makes it difficult to hide with it equipped
It's just an unversatile weapon.


The M249 is a part of not only CSS, but Zombie Mod as well. If it wasn't, then the Zombie Mod team could have disabled it themselves, which obviously did not happen.

kewkew

Then why not un-ban Auto-snipers then? :001_tt1:

Shadowex3
20 Jun 2008, 01:57pm
This is pointless. We're not going to get ANYTHING done to improve the server balance because this isn't just about the gun, the motivation behind leaving it unlocked isn't the argument that it's balanced fine it's that it isn't but they WANT to be able to kill the starter zombie over and over and over again.

Tcp-Kill
20 Jun 2008, 02:50pm
I still vote for admin-only-rocket-launcher weapon

G-Man
20 Jun 2008, 03:20pm
"Your opinion that is in the majority on the server network where you are a member on the Board of Directors isn't the same as my opinion, so go play on some other lame server you baby!"



Did i ever say that? Or did you just write it to make me look like the bad guy?

I dont care if your the president of the world, just because your on the "board of directors" doesnt mean your the person with the right view.. And what makes you think becaus ethe majority voted yes, means its the truthful awnser? Maybe they voted yes because they want to continue to rape teh crap out of zombies without think that sometimes they are one?

Astrum
20 Jun 2008, 03:21pm
How about we treat this more like a debate? This won't be a traditional debate style since it won't work, but here are the rules I'm thinking of:

Two teams, Against Restricting and For Restricting. At this point whether it should be banned or just limited is irrelevant, this is just to debate whether or not the para is detrimental to gameplay.

Both teams can make arguments to support their position. The opposing team can then form a rebuttal for all arguments they find specious. All arguments that aren't rebutted by the opposing team will be considered uncontested arguments and therefore valid by default. Any argument which is rebutted will be considered contested and can be debated until either side repeats an argument or fails to provide a logical argument to the contrary. If at the end the opposing team has rebutted an argument to which the opposed team can't counter properly - as stated above - then their initial argument is considered invalid. Otherwise it will be considered valid. The strongest position will win.

This might be more beneficial than yelling at each other and I can already tell some people are getting frustrated like Shadowex3 and G-Man. This would also provide Haggard more structured and lucid reasoning from both parties. Note that since Haggard is the owner this debate may not make any impact, he owns these servers and it's ultimately his decision. So keep in mind that this may be a purely theoretical debate in the end.

If you would like to do this then I'll happily catalog all arguments for both teams and all rebuttals sans mine since I would become the arbiter (unless anyone else wants to, perhaps a more neutral party). So what do you think, yes or no?

Italian Jew
20 Jun 2008, 03:28pm
A civilized debate on the interwebz!?

HERETIC! BLASPHEMER!

I don't know if that would work. People tend to get crazy when it comes to their beloved artificial world of CS. However, it would be nice to prevent people trying to insult people. If this is a serious attempt I would recommend a new thread on the topic.

For the record, G-Man, if you want to make LitKey cringe, just call him kiddo. Be warned, you might get served a ban though. :001_tt2:

G-Man
20 Jun 2008, 03:38pm
For the record, G-Man, if you want to make LitKey cringe, just call him kiddo. Be warned, you might get served a ban though. :001_tt2:

I appreciate the humor, but im finding myself starting to dislike this community for its avoidable flaws. AND NO, its not the paras, its the hierarchy of adminship, Board of Directors? i remember when the board of directors was just Red Tampon, henda, haggard, broncoty, and atarian. Im not trying to piss litkey off, im hardly familiar with him. I just think many mistakes are being made in part of the admins and they have benefit of the doubt which isnt fair cuz sometimes they make more mistakes than players. Like 1 hours ago i was kicked without warning for staying away from the mob of humans cuz i didnt want to get ass rapped. The admins name wasnt important, but things seem so unorganized and i dont see the head admins, or board of directors taking a lot of step to fix them. And then denying the problem is even more unbelievable. i dont think ill ever get admin at this rate, ill just get "unapproved" from some people who think i hate them but i really dont.

Italian Jew
20 Jun 2008, 03:48pm
Gotta learn to live with it. Yeah, sometimes the admins and higher ups act more forcefully than they should, but things here are a lot better than many other places. The BD's are only there because Haggard can't run the servers by himself. The admins can easily get their powers if they act nice for a while, get some ZM cred, and then apply for it. They usually use their powers correctly, but sometimes can go a little overboard and forget that it is not their server they are patrolling. Just gotta roll with it sometimes. Remember, these people may not be the best BD's or admins out there, but they have other stuff to do besides keep control of people online. Some may be flat out inept at it, but for the most part, they get the job done.

G-Man
20 Jun 2008, 04:10pm
Gotta learn to live with it. Yeah, sometimes the admins and higher ups act more forcefully than they should, but things here are a lot better than many other places. The BD's are only there because Haggard can't run the servers by himself. The admins can easily get their powers if they act nice for a while, get some ZM cred, and then apply for it. They usually use their powers correctly, but sometimes can go a little overboard and forget that it is not their server they are patrolling. Just gotta roll with it sometimes. Remember, these people may not be the best BD's or admins out there, but they have other stuff to do besides keep control of people online. Some may be flat out inept at it, but for the most part, they get the job done.

Well unfortunetly, im finding it to be worse than you think, but maybe its because im me. Maybe im doing something wrong, and if i have i apologize, im not trying to be disrespectful. Im not one to to take a beating and deal with it, i usually fight back, maybe more than i need to.. W.e, i dont make a lot of posts here often and i just thought i could get away with giving some feedback on the over usage of machine guns. BDs can close if theyd like, unless others want to debate. Ill keep a low profile, once again in the community... Litkey, Virdebello, Albert, Potshot sorry for anything ive done wrong.

Lol, thats the 4th time ive had to forgive myself at an online community... :sad:

Astrum
20 Jun 2008, 04:26pm
Well since you started this thread I'm not going to do a debate unless you want to, G-Man. Things got a bit heated so how about we take a break for a few days and play some other games (like insurgency with grim, we have to smother him before he leaves!).

If you still want to do a debate after this I'll arbitrate, G-Man. That is assuming the admins don't mind. Who knows, maybe we could do something like no para on mondays or something. The point is we could greatly improve the servers with our suggestions if we don't get into a bickering match.

We'll reconvene in a few days, frag on until then!

Red
20 Jun 2008, 04:43pm
The poll seems pretty conclusive

Italian Jew
20 Jun 2008, 04:54pm
The poll only included two options, not the third which would restrict the weapon to only a certain amount of players.

GrayFox
20 Jun 2008, 06:34pm
Blasmphemy! Yea, but I don't think an online debate would work. Restrict M249 on SST, rooftop runaway, and extinction. Oh and bring in teh autos.

Z3r0 M4ni4c
20 Jun 2008, 07:23pm
The poll only included two options, not the third which would restrict the weapon to only a certain amount of players.
Limiting the guns to a few per team wont do it. People will tk them for the para or fight over it. It will make it worse. And admins got more to do about warning kicking/banning for tk-ing. Its not a smart idea

Just to add something (if it isnt said already because im not gonna read 7 pages). Just restrict the paras on maps where its too much an advantage. Only the maps it is. And thats only on sst. No other map you have always an advantage and if your smart and use tactics you can win as zombie every map even with people having para's.

Its not that hard. I know you want to debate about it g-man and you have that right to do so. so dont think its stupid and all to bring some stuff in front with ideas. Because sometimes your ideas can be good :wink:

Just dont give up easy :wink:

Just my 2 cents

Italian Jew
20 Jun 2008, 09:02pm
I don't think they would go so far as to TK somebody over a gun (although some people take the game way too seriously). Some levels definitely need the para restricted, but I would be open to leaving unrestricted for others where people tend to not whore the weapon. It would be best to test restrictions of the weapon on different maps and see how things progress during the rounds so the higher ups can make a better judgment on the issue. I am sure there will be bitching from amongst some of the players, but they can get over it. I am sure they didn't get CS just to use the machine gun several hours out of the day.

LitKey
20 Jun 2008, 09:15pm
A civilized debate on the interwebz!?

HERETIC! BLASPHEMER!

I don't know if that would work. People tend to get crazy when it comes to their beloved artificial world of CS. However, it would be nice to prevent people trying to insult people. If this is a serious attempt I would recommend a new thread on the topic.

For the record, G-Man, if you want to make LitKey cringe, just call him kiddo. Be warned, you might get served a ban though. :001_tt2:

Actually, if you want to bring up your ban you keep peddling around in your signature like we told you to remove, that was just the icing on a cake for being a complete ass. And for the record, G-Man, if you want to make Italian Jew cringe, just call him libjew. Be warned, you might get a speech about how he is liberal and conservative even though on about every issue we've discussed here he's liberal. :001_smile:

G-Man, you having an opposite opinion on the M249 is no good reason to hate someone, and I don't hate you. Fact is that most of these "debates" will get someone really pissed off on one side and flames will begin, which is why it's not a good idea to label the other side "babies". No good will come from that, and that's why I told you stop flame-baiting before it got worse. If you think because of that I'm a bad BD (which actually hasn't existed until recently), so be it.

LitKey
20 Jun 2008, 09:22pm
Look, if you got a problem with an unbalanced map, take it up with the map's creator, but don't blame it on the M249. Bill Smauz here made SST (which should be noted is currently in BETA form) and you can give him suggestions on how to balance his map.

G-Man
20 Jun 2008, 09:28pm
Where i stand: paras should be restricted on SST, Rooftop, extinction and any other map thats cheap. In napalm, i think they should be restricted in ghodds killer field, and cbble because humans kick so much ass in them and would be more fair without the whoring of paras.

Maybe when they are enabled make it like 65 bullets a clip if thats possible. Or just lower the overall ammo amount so people arent tempted to just spray and waste 4 clips on one zombie...

Again all my opinion but i think most people want something done at least, despite my crappy poll.

P.S Litkey, i dont hate ya, i hardly know ya kiddo :wink:

Italian Jew
20 Jun 2008, 09:58pm
Yeah, Litkey still has some lulz. He isn't completely devoid of any human emotion.

And c'mon, that ban was a while ago and I still chuckle about it. I removed the pic from my sig for a while, and I brought it back (for the lulz, duh!). If it makes you feel bad though I will remove it.

I really don't think he is blaming the gun, but the people whoring the gun. Such sensitivity for it...

Shadowex3
20 Jun 2008, 10:28pm
I still think the whole issue would be negated if the zombies health was raised so that it wasn't really really easy to kill one without needing to stop firing. If it took 2 or 3 people cornering a zombie at once to kill him but the knockback was left the same then humans might be motivated to actually run away from zombies.

vinhex
20 Jun 2008, 11:28pm
99% of the time its the map, not the gun.....long narrow path with 5 guys and paras...its the map

G-Man
20 Jun 2008, 11:33pm
99% of the time its the map, not the gun.....long narrow path with 5 guys and paras...its the map

Exactly why i say it should be restricted on some maps. But its not JUSt the map, its quantity of bullets that gives the zombies hardly a chance to get on to a series of boxes where the humans are. And the reload time is nothing compare to the fire time so... Giving less ammo on para would draw back many from holding down the mouse button for 2 mins...

Marquis Posa
21 Jun 2008, 12:48am
ammo_556mm_box_max 300 ftw^^
i dont think it should be completely restricted, if the amount of ammo would be decreased the para shouldnt be overpowered anymore, because then you have to use your secondary gun and use your bullets wisely.

I still think the whole issue would be negated if the zombies health was raised so that it wasn't really really easy to kill one without needing to stop firing.
when US escape moved to zombiemod 2.0.0.v the healthpoints were lowered to 2500, on UK escape its still 3000.
the argument that other servers have rifles and the para restricted doesnt count, because the whole package is important and most of these servers have very low hps for zombies.

Mammal
21 Jun 2008, 04:25am
I gave up reading this thread after the second page, why? Because its stupid.
If you limit there would be spam wars, tks, suicides just to get a para, it would create such a want for them that it would get out of control.

You cannot restrict it, its either disable it or leave it.
If you disable it skilled humans will do well, I think it may help the server. Two skilled players with a P90 (C90) can hold zombies at the right point for longer than two with a para.
Marquis, jonix, you can back me up on this, I know you dont use paras.

I never buy paras and if you watch I generally do very well at the maps.

LitKey
21 Jun 2008, 04:34am
P90 & TMP FTW.

Daze
21 Jun 2008, 07:02am
In my personal "professional" opinion, I think that it should be kept. Zombies already have a speed boost & 6000 HP i think its fair that the humans should get a handicap to combat that.

As for the idea on limiting the amount of machine guns bought per round

It sounds fair, except for those few people who will get the machine gun every time, I dont know if its possible, but say if you have the MG for 2 rounds in a row, you cant have it for a 3rd? it would make the game fairer and a little more enjoyable for all concerned.

Thats what I think anyway!

Cya

G-Man
21 Jun 2008, 05:09pm
In my personal "professional" opinion, I think that it should be kept. Zombies already have a speed boost & 6000 HP i think its fair that the humans should get a handicap to combat that.



Cya

Sigh, im only repeating myself for people who are too lazy to read earlier posts. Zombies dont have 6000 Hp, they have 2500. Humans have good camping spots, and long range weapons. Zombies speed doesnt help much when it comes to camping spots because it doesnt help them get on top of boxes and get through barricades. Humans have the benefit right there and adding machine guns isnt making it any more fair...

Jaffa
21 Jun 2008, 06:38pm
how about just reducing the amount of bullets to ~300, so people who spray will run out of ammo fast.

I think this is a good idea, people seem to have complely looked over this idea, it means that the para-weilders do have to watch how they use their ammo (important for rebalancing sst, whilst not masssivly affecting most other maps).

I've made a stand and stopped buying paras completly, mainly using the m4, ak now (helps that reg. css has taught me how to master their recoil, giving me more hits, especially hs)

Incidently, how have me got 82 votes on the poll, yet the discussion is only between around 10 people max?

Lux
21 Jun 2008, 06:59pm
After thinking it through this is my final thought....

Restricting the machine gun will not solve any problems. Whilst it is better at zombie hunting in large numbers..camping etc most automatic guns in large numbers will still do the job.

The real problem is some maps. The point of escape maps is to escape, not camp and that is sadly what happens with a lot of recent maps.

Ofcourse there is points where you have to hold out for a brief amount of time but in good escape maps you are always running away until you get to the end or the very last escape part.

The main issue with maps where you have to hold your ground for a certain amount of time is how accessible it is. Some maps such as SST are incredibly too difficult. In contrast Island Escape and Boatescape are good examples of maps where holding out at cliff/boxes is balanced.

So my opinion is that the question is not whether to restrict/ban the machine gun, the question is whether the map is balanced or not. The machine gun has a very small part of balancing and many other guns have similiar effect, especially in large numbers.



I guess before when I blamed the machine gun it was actually the players bearing the gun, or doing activities such as hunting....gayspotting...running away in groups towards the spawn making the rounds much longer when they will die anyway...that kinda stuff.

Daze
22 Jun 2008, 10:37am
Sigh, im only repeating myself for people who are too lazy to read earlier posts. Zombies dont have 6000 Hp, they have 2500. Humans have good camping spots, and long range weapons. Zombies speed doesnt help much when it comes to camping spots because it doesnt help them get on top of boxes and get through barricades. Humans have the benefit right there and adding machine guns isnt making it any more fair...

I'm incredibly lazy!

think about those ZM Servers that do auto reload! i think its perfectly balanced!

Dracula
22 Jun 2008, 11:47am
Ok this is just coming from me when i play i almost never buy the Para I stick to the P90 or Pumpshotty if i am zombie it almost is never that hard to kill Para people because half them suck with the gun but there are maps where no matter what the Para rules and if you have a problem with it dont get stabbed by a zombie and there are other maps where u need it if you even want a hope of wining also unless there are like 7 or more people with a Para you can usually win with numbers.

Danny G
3 Jul 2008, 05:28pm
Yeah, I agree with you, machine guns are a bit excessive when ppl cover you while you reload and shoot again. But when you are alone it takes forever to reload which gives the zombie time to stab you. But I wouldn't mind, to restrict machine guns out of the servers.

SOLANUM
3 Jul 2008, 05:39pm
JUNGLE MAN, DO NOT BUMP OLD THREADS OR FACE CASTRATION WITH RUSTY PINKING SHEARS.....ahem...that'll be all.




Sol

Henrik
3 Sep 2008, 05:59am
machine is good but if you have 5 guys with p90 its better

GrayFox
3 Sep 2008, 08:33am
machine is good but if you have 5 guys with p90 its better

Shit did you really not read the post with BIG READ LETTERS right above that says DO NOT BUMP!:thumbdown:

And Mac-10 ftw.

Robfal
3 Sep 2008, 10:14am
In the real world, machine guns are a huge disadvantage... to whoever is downrange from the weapon! HAHAH!

Vodkaknight
14 Sep 2008, 08:26pm
Remove paras plz, it just allows noobs to think they are good. When I first started playing here over a year ago none of the maps allowed paras.



EDIT: Didnt read the whole thread before I posted and so I didnt read this part:


DO NOT BUMP OLD THREADS OR FACE CASTRATION WITH RUSTY PINKING SHEARS.....ahem...that'll be all.




Sol

Repus
14 Sep 2008, 08:47pm
Paras are ok, but auto shottys are pain in ass

lolzomgz
4 Oct 2008, 03:46pm
due to the 5 hour reload and it's crappy-ness at anything that is more than 2cm away it's a bad weapon for most maps...

SOLANUM
4 Oct 2008, 04:03pm
due to the 5 hour reload and it's crappy-ness at anything that is more than 2cm away it's a bad weapon for most maps...


STOP BUMPING OLD THREADS