Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help [Archive]

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Misanthrope

1 Jun 2008, 06:18pm

Reminds me of the boy who was not allowed to get a blood transfusion because his dumb ass parents thought it was the same thing as cannibalism.

Terribly sad story, especially considering police have decided against rescuing her siblings.

Source - Fox News (surprisingly) (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html)

WESTON, Wis. — An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.

Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.

"She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.

Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.

The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.

They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said.

The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.

Telephone messages left at the Neumann home by The Associated Press were not immediately returned.

The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."

The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester.

Officers went to the home after one of the girl's relatives in California called police to check on her, Vergin said. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead.

The relative was fearful the girl was "extremely ill, dire," Vergin said.

The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.

"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."

The girl's death remains under investigation and the findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges, the chief said.

The family operates a coffee shop in Weston, which is a suburb of Wausau, Vergin said.

Weasel

1 Jun 2008, 07:12pm

That is just sad,

I'm all for hope, But why not hope and medical treatment

Terrible choice.

The parents have 3 siblings that will be staying with them, thats even worse.

BOOWY

1 Jun 2008, 07:45pm

I remember seeing something about this in law class when I was in high school... for some reason Law & Order comes to mind, but I'm not sure. Basically it was about the same thing, though maybe it was about religion preventing the child from getting medical care while the guys were arguing with his/her parents about it. Either way, it's really sad. I don't care how strongly one believes in their God, when someone really needs medical attention and their life is on the line, I don't think it's blasphemous in any way shape or form to seek help from a local hospital to save a life.

Lemmings19

1 Jun 2008, 09:01pm

Heard the exact same story years ago. These people are copy cats!

Weasel

1 Jun 2008, 09:37pm

Heard the exact same story years ago. These people are copy cats!

Posers?

LitKey

1 Jun 2008, 09:39pm

mNote

1 Jun 2008, 09:39pm

God created people so people can help save themselves.

That's my reasonings. :001_smile:

Hazardous

1 Jun 2008, 09:45pm

:scared:

Kalibre

2 Jun 2008, 12:43am

That's sad :S Why not just go give her bloody medical attention rather then pray?? Well religion shouldn't come between people staying alive.

Misanthrope

2 Jun 2008, 12:54am

God created people so people can help save themselves.

That's my reasonings. :001_smile:

Your reasoning is quite unreasonable.

Lux

2 Jun 2008, 05:36am

Toxin

2 Jun 2008, 05:43am

2fast

2 Jun 2008, 06:03am

dumbass ppl

Weasel

2 Jun 2008, 06:06am

You would think parents would be smarter.

juku

2 Jun 2008, 06:52am

Nah it is not that they were stupid, just weak minded and was sucked into the religion like a cult. Believing the unnatural force can do something / just plain desperate and want to save money.

LegalSmash

2 Jun 2008, 07:50am

Actually this is murding, isn't it?
*Pray for god* *God makes me noclip mode* *I go onto the street and run in front of a car that drives 100mph* *God makes me mortal before the car crashes me* *I die*

* GOD SAYS OWNED!!*

Omg xD

Nope. Situations like this are not usually considered to be murders, or for that matter, voluntary killings. They actually may move from this situation sans one child but relatively scott free. Let me explain:
Murder is the act of committing homicide with malice aforethought (planning or intent).

Considering that these people in their subjective religious-based beliefs decided that prayer was better than doctor, they had no actual intent to cause the death of the child, murder would b e a wasted charge by the pros.

This is not completely uncommon in the midwest. Ever since the Great Depression and before, many sects of protestantism in the united states (one is called the church of christian scientists, I believe, although may be mistaken as to the exact name) have relied on prayer as a primary means of healing, claiming that if enough people pray, the malady will go away. Some sects of christianity dont believe in transplants, transfusions, injections, IVs, or Gynos, feeling that it is god's job to regulate the human body and any interference will result in eternal damnation.

Similarly, Indians (the native kind, as opposed to the 7-11 kind here in the US) have relied throughout history and continue to rely on prayer and communing with spirits to resolve health issues... this is all called "holistic medicine" and has SOME credibility if you believe in the whole mind over matter (the matter being the body).

This family engaged in exactly that, an alternative to conventional medical treatment. Andy Kaufman did it when he was dying... it was a total sham, but it made him feel a little better before the cancer killed him.

Granted, this could have been an easily prevented disease, but, then again, so could a common cold if the indians had some dayquil back in 1500. These people made a phenomenally stupid mistake, one that will hang over their heads throughout their lives and fuck up the lives of their kids. at the MOST, I see these people receiving an involuntary manslaughter, or perhaps a criminally negligent homicide charge... and even then, the pros would have to prove they knew that their conduct was reckless and wanton.

Aside from this there is no real "damage" done to anyone but their own family... it was their kid, they paid for, and they subsequently (inadvertently) killed.

I think the state can probably see that there is enough hardship going on there, and it appears to be prudent NOT to go after this family, at least until something calms down.

Omar

2 Jun 2008, 07:57am

i have a better idea: why not give medical attention and pray for it to work, instead of trying to save money.

Suri

2 Jun 2008, 08:33am

This is why religion is bad, it makes people some people go crazy like this and believe they have super healing powers.

I say the parents should be jailed for murder because that is what they have denied her the help she could of got to survive.

I'm not saying all religious people are retarded but these strange things people assume comes with religion makes it bad. Whilst I think the whole be nice to others bla bla is good the unreal God stuff causes stuff like this.

I would not group religion as a whole with these nutjobs. These people are to the extreme. These are people that are more like a cult then anything else.

I always have a issue when some one is in the news like this and people start lumping any one that calls them self a Christian into the same group.

Yes God can heal people, but God also uses Doctors and others to do the healing. He works through people all the time.

SATAN

2 Jun 2008, 08:45am

wow thats just stupid....

So if one of their remaining kids goes swiming one day and starts drowning cause for some reason they dont know how to swim....
Are they gonna just pray for him/her to suddendtly learn and get back to land instead of helping him/her?

to me thats the same exact thing

Red

2 Jun 2008, 08:56am

Misanthrope

2 Jun 2008, 11:07am

Yes God can heal people, but God also uses Doctors and others to do the healing. He works through people all the time.

Too bad he's never used that ability...

Suri

2 Jun 2008, 11:15am

Too bad he's never used that ability...

And you know this how? Did I miss something.

Misanthrope

2 Jun 2008, 12:23pm

And you know this how? Did I miss something.

If you want to debate it, I'll pull the burden of proof card and say that I've never seen it, because I haven't. It's your obligation to prove it.

PotshotPolka

2 Jun 2008, 12:30pm

If you want to debate it, I'll pull the burden of proof card and say that I've never seen it, because I haven't. It's your obligation to prove it.

Let's not shall we, I think you've started enough debates or do you not remember the last one?

Suri

2 Jun 2008, 12:32pm

If you want to debate it, I'll pull the burden of proof card and say that I've never seen it, because I haven't. It's your obligation to prove it.

Mis here is the thing. Never in my statement did I came close to attacking what some one else believes. You did. And that's one reason I stay away from these treads.

For some reason you can't make a post with out attacking some one else. Just freaking say what you believe with out putting what others think down. It's not that hard.

Red

2 Jun 2008, 12:40pm

What is it you think you're supposed to see?

Clouds parting and hands stretching down from the sky and giving someone CPR?

Maybe it's something not observable by eyesight, something unseen.

btw I'm not religious, just putting that out there as I can see it as the most likely argument.

Misanthrope

2 Jun 2008, 02:54pm

Mis here is the thing. Never in my statement did I came close to attacking what some one else believes. You did. And that's one reason I stay away from these treads.

For some reason you can't make a post with out attacking some one else. Just freaking say what you believe with out putting what others think down. It's not that hard.

That is what I fucking believe, I couldn't make that anymore respectful. There's a difference between postulation and instigation, why is it no one here has the capacity to understand this?

Lux

2 Jun 2008, 03:34pm

I would not group religion as a whole with these nutjobs. These people are to the extreme. These are people that are more like a cult then anything else.

I always have a issue when some one is in the news like this and people start lumping any one that calls them self a Christian into the same group.

Yes God can heal people, but God also uses Doctors and others to do the healing. He works through people all the time.

Suri I didn't group you all up, I did say that I don't think all religious people are retarded.

I don't want to offend anyone but in every dam post I make do I have to spell it out for everyone. I'm really tired of everyone misunderstanding what I say and jumping to conclusions.

Also I agree entirely with Misanthrope. There is a difference between stating what we believe and attacking someone elses believes.

By saying you are religious, you are going against our belief that there are no religions, we don't complain about it though.

Also as Misanthrope says, religion believes in something without proof, I'm not going to completely 100% say it is impossible but turning the question of "do you have proof?" into "do you have proof against it?" is just something used because what else do you have? An athiest can say "Look at the world today, almost anything we can see or know about can be proved to have a link to science and ages before the time in which the Bible states that the world was magically zapped into existence". Things that can't be justified aren't because they are necessarilly God's creation, most likely because we haven't become advanced enough to explain them or know about them. People in the Medieval Ages would think that a car is so mighty only God could create it, but they would be wrong.

But a religious person cannot say "Hey go up to Heaven and check for yourself".

I'm not trying to offend anyone this is just my reasoning behind my believes, I won't beg or try to convince people to believe what I believe because people are sure of what they believe, but I myself can say that I am open to any existing or new beliefs if it seems like the most believable and backed up thing.

Suri

2 Jun 2008, 04:26pm

Too bad he's never used that ability...

When you quote what I say and then say that. Well thats calling out what i was saying and putting it in question. So that is a flame on what I was saying.

You need to learn that!

Suri

2 Jun 2008, 04:30pm

Suri I didn't group you all up, I did say that I don't think all religious people are retarded.

I don't want to offend anyone but in every dam post I make do I have to spell it out for everyone. I'm really tired of everyone misunderstanding what I say and jumping to conclusions.

Also I agree entirely with Misanthrope. There is a difference between stating what we believe and attacking someone elses believes.

By saying you are religious, you are going against our belief that there are no religions, we don't complain about it though.

Also as Misanthrope says, religion believes in something without proof, I'm not going to completely 100% say it is impossible but turning the question of "do you have proof?" into "do you have proof against it?" is just something used because what else do you have? An athiest can say "Look at the world today, almost anything we can see or know about can be proved to have a link to science and ages before the time in which the Bible states that the world was magically zapped into existence". Things that can't be justified aren't because they are necessarilly God's creation, most likely because we haven't become advanced enough to explain them or know about them. People in the Medieval Ages would think that a car is so mighty only God could create it, but they would be wrong.

But a religious person cannot say "Hey go up to Heaven and check for yourself".

I'm not trying to offend anyone this is just my reasoning behind my believes, I won't beg or try to convince people to believe what I believe because people are sure of what they believe, but I myself can say that I am open to any existing or new beliefs if it seems like the most believable and backed up thing.

I was not saying you Lux. I was saying the world in general. I wont ever question what people believe. Every one in intitled to their own belief.

I can't stand when I see Christians try to push our belief onto people. That is never going to be effective ever. So you won't ever see me do it here. Allot of people know I am a Childrens Pastore, but never once have I tried to talk or push onto people what I believe. I try to let my life speak for it's self.

PotshotPolka

2 Jun 2008, 04:32pm

That is what I fucking believe, I couldn't make that anymore respectful. There's a difference between postulation and instigation, why is it no one here has the capacity to understand this?

I think I see a trend here:
Science leads to killing people"
Court Strikes Down Gideon Bible Distributiion
Teacher Accused Of Burning Crosses Onto Students' Arms
Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Postulation? Your making a fucking demand that all christians, or rather organized religion or any person that seems to differ from your own views is a retarded inbred? If you know (and you damn well do) that your views obviously conflict with others, and then pulling shit from some fucked website to continuously rub it in their face is nothing but antagonism.

LitKey

2 Jun 2008, 04:39pm

Suri

2 Jun 2008, 04:42pm

Misanthrope

2 Jun 2008, 05:21pm

I think I see a trend here:
Science leads to killing people"
Court Strikes Down Gideon Bible Distributiion
Teacher Accused Of Burning Crosses Onto Students' Arms
Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Postulation? Your making a fucking demand that all christians, or rather organized religion or any person that seems to differ from your own views is a retarded inbred? If you know (and you damn well do) that your views obviously conflict with others, and then pulling shit from some fucked website to continuously rub it in their face is nothing but antagonism.

Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

QED, fuck face.

PotshotPolka

2 Jun 2008, 07:52pm

QED, fuck face.

Don't try to weedle out of this by calling shenanigans on writing style and fallacies of logic, which by the way you used i.e. Red Herring.
How about we dumb it down then?
You piss off others users with your god rants on the forums.
No one enjoys it, so stop.

As for the QED part go shove a pineapple up your ass, I gave my damn evidence.

I think I see a trend here:
Science leads to killing people"
Court Strikes Down Gideon Bible Distributiion
Teacher Accused Of Burning Crosses Onto Students' Arms
Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Misanthrope

2 Jun 2008, 08:09pm

Don't try to weedle out of this by calling shenanigans on writing style and fallacies of logic, which by the way you used i.e. Red Herring.
How about we dumb it down then?
You piss off others users with your god rants on the forums.
No one enjoys it, so stop.

As for the QED part go shove a pineapple up your ass, I gave my damn evidence.

That's evidence of nothing other than the fact that I like posting religiously inclined articles (quite obvious). If you've got such a problem with god rants, formulate an articulated, coherent refutation. Or if you'd rather, you can take Suri's position of counting a basic opposition/questioning as a direct attack.

LegalSmash

2 Jun 2008, 08:10pm

1 point polka
0 point mis
playball!!!

Let me actually say something here:

1. religion is not viewable objectively, even in a court of law, questions of "reasonable belief" by nature have to be subjective. You cannot look at the story of Noah's Ark, etc. and make sense of it in the lens of scientific "rationality", because it would appear utter bullshit. This is the same as looking at an islamic perspective on womanly behavior from a full on bad ass 90 mile an hour bulldyke feminist perspective, it would not only NOT make sense, but likely be antagonistic.

2. Misanthrope posts articles that represent rather fringe sections in christianity, "christian scientists", the gideons, and whacked out teachers. The thing is Misanthrope, these same activities are carried out (child abuse, nearly criminal negligence due to omission of action on part of the responsible party, solicitation, etc.) in ALL facets of life. You just choose to pick the examples that are seemingly to you, steeped in religiosity. The thing is dude, there is little difference between three green peace people offering to tell you about the deforestation in brazil, or the feelings of the baby seals about global warming than there is in an offering of a bible, should you choose to accept it from the gideons. There is little difference between a teacher burning crosses into a students arm, a teacher fucking a student, or a nanny shaking the shit out of a child, its a breach of fiduciary duty by the individual entrusted to care for the victim. My point is, for every example you give with the articles, there are plethora of additional articles following the same fact pattern that DONT deal with christianity.

3. Your gideon article analysis was completely wrong, as was the judge's application of the law, and should that be appealed (and I hope it does) the higher courts taking the case will reverse and remand that shit faster than a fat bitch running to a golden corral on macaroni day. No precedent has EVER established minor student peer pressure to be tantamount to state action, further removing the gideons right to use a public structure to exercise their freedom of expression (which includes religious speech), in an acceptable manner according to local community standards is a violation of equal protection under the law. The kid is a goth, good for her, and she was allowed the opportunity to refuse the book, the trip to the table, etc. She made the conscious choice not to to avoid perceived public ire.... let me restate that "PERCEIVED PUBLIC IRE".... it was her subjective belief that she would be treated differently, called devil worshipper, for NOT taking the book... and that is something for her to take up with a trust counselor, her classmate's parents, or the principle, and is NOT state action under the establishment clause.

But hey, you enjoy making arguments that attack religion, which truth be told, ARE hard to defend, because you cant get a deity to pop up and make a statement as to the veracity of the stories in their religion. However, Religion, despite your articles, and statements, are a positive force. People more often dont kill, rape, and steal because they fear for their soul, not because they fear prison.

Ask yourself why a homeless man, or a poor religious guy who has been to jail before, knows he gets fed while there, and doesnt have food on the outside would lose by committing a crime... one good robbery can get him easily 1-5 years of 3 square meals a day, medical care, a bed, and free education paid for by the state.... Its the "belief structure" his faith sets into him: that he will burn in hell, etc. for NOT following the tenets that scares him into NOT doing what he would otherwise quite benefit from.

Im not uber religious, I am as bad a catholic as you can get... but I CAN tell you that I've seen more people driven to succeed, achieve, refuse to commit an undue act, or be generally a better contributer to society due to a faith in SOMETHING, be it God, Yahwey, Allah, Budda, or the flying spaghetti monster.

I think there is an old saying: There are no athiests in foxholes...

PotshotPolka

2 Jun 2008, 08:40pm

Anything else, or can we call this dead and buried?

Misanthrope

2 Jun 2008, 08:50pm

I think there is an old saying: There are no athiests in foxholes...
Haha, now that you mention it...

FrPLupGdKKQ

Anything else, or can we call this dead and buried?

No patronizing plz.

Suri

3 Jun 2008, 06:30am

This thread is going one place. And I will not have it happen. Topic closed.