Banning without proof

[Lux]

Yes it is a great wall of text, but please read it! Its not a best seller but I put time into it and I'd hate for no one to share their thoughts too

I'm not going to say that banning without proof is always wrong, but I think maybe people feel hard done by.

I see many appeals and it is just the admins word agaisnt the player. I think that most of the time admins are too quick to side with the admin to give out the ban.

I know a lot of people lie but I also know that a lot of the time people are wrongly punished.

An appeal:
I was on escape and I am not sure why I was banned, maybe it was the time when I got glitched in the heli and people fell out but I don't know. I really love the server so please unban me because I would like to play again.
Thanks for reading

Random admin:
Ok wait until (insert banner) comes on so that we hear his side of the story.

Banner:
You liar I saw you purposely glitch people out you noob kiddie serve out your ban and next time it will be much longer

AO/BoD:
This is your 1st strike out of 3, serve out your ban and play cleanly.


Obviously its not always like that, but I just don't think that this scenario is fair at all, theres no proof either way and I think its unprofessional to side with the admin just because he is the admin. My solution isn't that every ban needs proof because then other than being a big hassle they might get away with it, but just don't add it to the strikes towards perma ban.


I also see this situation a few times which I think is unfair.


Banned guy:
*normal polite appeal*

Banner:
Completely defending himself, no thought to understand the player just 100%sure his ban was right. Flaming, insults, sarcasm.

AO/BoD:
Serve out ban.

Banned guy:
Offended by the insults, says some things back.

*Flame battle goes on for a bit*

AO/BoD:
Perma banned.


To be honest I've seen admins start the flaming and nothing happens but when a player says something it is seriously punished. In this case I think admins should be warned, possibly they don't even deserve admin.

If you aren't going to show the respect to players and try and understand their case then it isn't really a server for the community, if admins don't need proof to ban they can make up whatever rules they like.

In other cases I know that some admins have good intentions but maybe need to be given help to put them in the right direction. Some don't even read the ban itself and think a complaint or an appeal means they are threatening them being bad admins and so they jump to conclusions.


That is the biggest problem, jumping to conclusions. I know I have done it many times and I own up and say sorry for it, and I am a forgiving person too, but I get tired of people who are the opposite, too full of themselves and never forgiving.

I would like to say again that I know that the examples I gave are not always the case, sometimes players come in flaming from the start and that doesn't help, and sometimes people lie but I believe in innocent until proven guilty, if you took the strikes of unproven bans it would maybe punish them for doing something wrong if they did do it, but they wouldn't unfairly recieve a strike.

Rant over, tried not to make anything personal so don't take offence, it is just a discussion I wanted to make because I think it is a problem which makes the relationship between admins and players worse than it could be, and it makes the banlist a lot higher.

[Italian Jew]

I don't really see where the person is polite in the beginning and the admin(s) automatically go into a flame war with them. Please be so kind as to support your claim with evidence.

A lot of those people who appeal whine about doing nothing (which they in fact do) and that they didn't mean to do something (when they really did) and so on.

The admins know not to ban without proof for any longer than a day, and if it occurs where someone is perm banned without proof, it is usually an accident.

I don't think the admins are sheep as you make them out to be.

[Lux]

Sometimes it is, I don't want to get personal because it just turns ugly and I can't hope to get any gain out of it. All I will say is that I have some personal experience and I recently saw someone else on the end of it, from the same admin. Don't look into it more though, this isn't an individual admin complaint it is a general discussion on rules and how bans are treated.

As I said it isn't like every ban is like this, but if it is 1/50 I think it should still be addressed?

I just wanted to hear peoples opinions, and I accept your opinion I don't demand that people agree with me because I know I'm not always right I try to not be as arrogant as I naturally am.

[Zargotelc]

On a related note , I read the ban appeals every day for a good laugh , but in those threads and related complaint sections there's been this fictional notion that the admins have been banning "on a whim" , as a poster put it. This is nonsense. The admins here do a very good job enforcing server rules on these servers , and most of the people who have been banned have been warned multiple times. Heck , I saw a blocker the other day in Atix helicopter who just stood on the ladder , got us all turned into zombies , and we were all clamoring for him to be banned. But the admin showed restraint and warned if it happened again he'd ban. :)

[Lux]

Obviously I don't tolerate racism in any form, a name like "FUCK N*****S" is obviously purposely offensive, where as some words are perhaps misinterpretted by some people, to one person it could be offensive but to the other they don't really see it as offensive at all, to be honest that is the same with most racist words these days...they aren't used with the intent to mean what the word actually means, they just stand for the extreme anger the person is in, it is a way of going beyond the worst swear words I guess. That aside I think not allowing racists words is good but when someone accidently happens to have a name or say something which is offensive without intent to offend they should be warned.

I don't think admins ban "on a whim" but I do think some ban hastilly and some ban without getting the full story, possibly just on what their friend or some random dude on the server said or on what they saw, which could not of been conclusive.


I think admins do a good job, but I also think that sometimes rules are bent and admins misuse their power. I know it happens I have a friend who takes liberties because he can host games on this game and I can't, and he has a follower so if I don't agree to be abused by him I get left out, and whilst I don't think I get abused by admins sometimes in an argument where it is a fair discussion admins ban the player because they can and the player can't, and if the player appeals the admin says they disrespected admins and it is over.

[BOOWY]

For as long as I've been playing on the RUN BITCH RUN servers(well, server I should say because for a long time there was only one), I have yet to remember a single case of a wrongful banning... other than the one time I've gotten banned. That is until today when I witnessed the banning of BigD on blackmesa, which was a mistake as I read on the forums a few minutes ago. It happens.

Again, I encourage everyone to make two simple keybindings. I personally use F1 to start a demo, and F2 to stop the demo. Start the demo when you get on the server or when the map changes, and stop it when the map ends or when you leave. What this is doing is that every time you start the demo, your old demo gets overwritten so it's not hogging hard drive space(assuming you're starting demos with the bind).

If you get banned wrongfully, you've got every single round since the demo started recorded in your defense. If you firmly believe an admin is misusing their privileges(fuck me, I actually had to look this up to spell it properly :mad:), you've got it recorded. I don't really do this because I know enough not to go near any switches, I always make it a point to try and be at the front of any moving vehicle so that I don't get glitched, and I run with a knife or grenade or a pistol sometimes if I've got zombies to shoot at so that I don't get accused of breaking stuff on people. It's sad that it has to come to that in the first place, but that's the reality when you've got so many people that have fun on the server by ruining other people's fun.

I learned this lesson a long time ago when I tried complaining about an admin banning me. Having absolutely no idea why I got banned, it's nearly impossible to get the proof needed to defend yourself, especially when an admin decides to ban you five or ten minutes after you "did something" and are completely thrown off on why you were banned in the first place. Furthermore, the way the forums are set up, no regular player can vouch for you or support you on a complaint made against you or on a complaint you've made, so the cards are already stacked against you before you even make that post.

Demos speak volumes, take them liberally.

[Lux]

I have yet to remember a single case of a wrongful banning... other than the one time I've gotten banned.

Well that seems a bit silly pointing out, it isn't like only your ban was not justified and all the others weren't.

You can't always know if someone is doing something wrong. Unless you put CCTV in every players house so you can see what they were doing when they got banned, sometimes it is hard to know whether he did it on purpose or not, and if he did something wrong maybe it wasn't with bad intention, some people haven't played the map or it was a mistake, I know I have made mistakes many times and I just apologise to make sure the player I messed up is cool with it.

I think started a demo which could go on for I dunno, hours? Isn't practicle because no one is willing to download something that long. You could keep making new ones every 10 minutes or something, but as you said some people get banned 5 or 10 minutes after doing something wrong.


I learned this lesson a long time ago when I tried complaining about an admin banning me. Having absolutely no idea why I got banned, it's nearly impossible to get the proof needed to defend yourself, especially when an admin decides to ban you five or ten minutes after you "did something" and are completely thrown off on why you were banned in the first place. Furthermore, the way the forums are set up, no regular player can vouch for you or support you on a complaint made against you or on a complaint you've made, so the cards are already stacked against you before you even make that post.

That is what I feel, when I look back at appeals and see how many people in an "admins v players" word appeal have actually been unbanned. Everything is against you, you are treated as guilty till proven innocent, and asking for proof when you aren't expecting to be banned is a bit lazy I think. No one wants to argue with their fellow admins because it is easier to let some random player just get his ban.


Before I get flamed though for all this, I don't think this is every case, but a lot of the time I think it is unfair, obviously its impossible to get everything right, but I think people jump to conclusions too soon.

[Italian Jew]

Well, the idiots who accuse the admins of being morons and blatantly disrespect them do not deserve having their banned looked at again. They would either get a ban for being disrespectful or get a longer ban for it. If you notice, the sane, logical, and nice people who respect admins and DID NOT do anything get unbanned. Other people want an appeal for a 5 minute ban...and those people are just idiots.

[callistotyler]

Well, the idiots who accuse the admins of being morons and blatantly disrespect them do not deserve having their banned looked at again. They would either get a ban for being disrespectful or get a longer ban for it. If you notice, the sane, logical, and nice people who respect admins and DID NOT do anything get unbanned. Other people want an appeal for a 5 minute ban...and those people are just idiots.

Encore Encore, I was going to type the whole thing you did but yeah. It seems you already did. >__>; And as long as I have been here too I have never witnessed an "Unfair" banning.

[Lux]

Well its impossible for you to know isn't it?

A blatant ban to someone could be an accident to others, who knows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Italian Jew View Post
Well, the idiots who accuse the admins of being morons and blatantly disrespect them do not deserve having their banned looked at again. They would either get a ban for being disrespectful or get a longer ban for it. If you notice, the sane, logical, and nice people who respect admins and DID NOT do anything get unbanned. Other people want an appeal for a 5 minute ban...and those people are just idiots.

Obviously if they disrespect without reason then the ban should just be rejected, but if it comes down to the admin having a fight with them and then the admin bans them I don't think that is very fair, being an admin shouldn't make you automatically right, and banning when people don't agree with you is abuse, yeah if they break a rule ban but if they try to say sorry I think they deserve to be forgiven.

Also some people who appeal for 5 min bans don't actually know it is a 5 min ban. Not everyone goes and checks their ban time, which is why they come here to find out. Also it isn't just about the ban length, but the point that they want to prove themself innocent, I don't know if a 5 min ban counts towards the 3 strikes but it stays on your record...

[Blank]

We do require proof for bans that are in excess of one week. I would love to have solid evidence to review (demo or screenshot) for every appeal, but I think this is an unreasonable request for our admins.

We have many more appeals now then we have ever had before. I think this is because when a player is banned, they are presented with a message to come here to appeal their case. I'm fine with this because I like to hear the players side of the story.


I don't know if a 5 min ban counts towards the 3 strikes but it stays on your record...

Five minute ban does not count toward your three strikes. Although it does stay on your record, we have a method to compensate for this.