«SG.Sup» SgtJoo Complaint

[Metal]

Player Complaint

Name of Offender
«SG.Sup» SgtJoo STEAM_ID of Offender
STEAM_0:1:9199236 Type of proof attached
demo Server and Map it happened on
STEAMGAMERS.COM | BITCH TRAITOR | *Traitor Town* Clue Summary of what happened
http://www.mediafire.com/?wzzymiw2xzd

Well, It seems Detective can make any kind of rule and follow it.
Joo said not to turn the lights off.
3 People including me and baddog got killed.
Bad dog jailed Joo and highsky unjailed him.
Bad dog tried to slay Joo, he didnt die.
Than highsky goes on about he gave a order and he can follow it though.

Me and other people are regulars and put in around 4-5 hours in a day in TTT.

When ever i see a detective give a order like "Dont go into the testing chamber" and the IN,T go in they will get killed. The detective will get slayed or jailed.

Edit:
Ok, it might seem like its legit.
But it isn't.
The map isn't even made for TTT.
The lights are used for the CT vs T in normal DE.
The lights did not give a advantage nor disadvantage due to something we call voip and flashlight.

In general the whole detective bullshit has been going on for a while now.
I detective should not just make a order for the shits, like don't press that button or don't break that box etc.



also.
Joo is a good player, but this just pushed it.

[Bad Dog]

I think you jailed him, I slayed him.

[Daze]

You are an admin right?

[Metal]

You are an admin right?

Highsky did some magic and we were not able to use admin powers.
I tried to jail Joo, highsky said "No" than BadDog tried to slay him.
Didn't work.
Thing is, for the amount of time i have put into TTT, i have never seen a detective get away with making a order that has nothing to do with TTT.

[High]

Did you neglect to mention the part where one of you wasnt wearing tags?

[Metal]

Did you neglect to mention the part where one of you wasnt wearing tags?

What does this have to do with the complaint?
If Bad Dog wanted to put tags on, he would need to exit Gmod and change it.
Don't try to change subjects, if you want to talk to bad dog about not having tags, go ahead.
But when a moment arises and you have no choice, well you can't to much.


The situation at hand is that Joo made a useless order that in return killed 3 people.
Detectives have a job to do, not make rules like, don't go into this room where i am or ill kill you. We have proof of this in the demo and we said shutting off the light will make it so T's can knife you. but the map made the models/skins glow.

I'm not trying to bash Joo or yourself highsky, i just want to see that something good can come out of this situation.
I have seen it before, a D killing like 5-6 people who went to the top floor in Nexus.
Just try to see it though our eyes.

A D that blocks a area of the map to camp.
They are not doing their job.
Why are they even in TTT then?

[Spartan]

As far as I'm aware, camping is not against the rules on TTT, nor is camping in any specific room against the rules. So don't bring this up about the 'job' someone has. If an innocent gets killed by a T and does not say who it is before he dies, is he failing to do his job as an innocent? No.

You should also be aware that this is indeed a game. People do not have to play the game's purpose as a detective to the standard you may. A detective giving stupid orders like "Don't jump" or "Don't break that box" are yes stupid, but if you go ahead and do it anyway, why? Out of spite? For the lolz? Joo told you not to turn the lights out, and yet I imagine you still did. It's not hard to just leave them on. Don't hit your action key when you are standing next to it. Joo's prerogative as a detective is to ensure he catches the traitors. Turning the lights out in his defence is possibly seen as threatning to the innocents and encouraging to the traitors.

You can't really claim this as RDM either. You were told an order and you disobeyed. Since he is also detective you know he is innocent.

However, I do agree on some level that forbidding people to turn off the lights, as it is part of the map and then killing them for it, does seem a bit of an over-reaction. In any case it wouldn't seem plausable in this sense to punish Joo. He's not a new player to Gmod and knows how to play TTT.

Any order by a detective however that restricts your game play, such as ordering someone to stay in a room or to freeze the entire round isn't really allowed. It's always a matter of common sense. Subjectively I imagine you're pissed of from being killed. The others who died are just evidence to the cause. Regardless, I believe Highsky's decision will take the forefront.

[Metal]

As far as I'm aware, camping is not against the rules on TTT, nor is camping in any specific room against the rules. So don't bring this up about the 'job' someone has. If an innocent gets killed by a T and does not say who it is before he dies, is he failing to do his job as an innocent? No.

You should also be aware that this is indeed a game. People do not have to play the game's purpose as a detective to the standard you may. A detective giving stupid orders like "Don't jump" or "Don't break that box" are yes stupid, but if you go ahead and do it anyway, why? Out of spite? For the lolz? Joo told you not to turn the lights out, and yet I imagine you still did. It's not hard to just leave them on. Don't hit your action key when you are standing next to it. Joo's prerogative as a detective is to ensure he catches the traitors. Turning the lights out in his defence is possibly seen as threatning to the innocents and encouraging to the traitors.

You can't really claim this as RDM either. You were told an order and you disobeyed. Since he is also detective you know he is innocent.

However, I do agree on some level that forbidding people to turn off the lights, as it is part of the map and then killing them for it, does seem a bit of an over-reaction. In any case it wouldn't seem plausable in this sense to punish Joo. He's not a new player to Gmod and knows how to play TTT.

Any order by a detective however that restricts your game play, such as ordering someone to stay in a room or to freeze the entire round isn't really allowed. It's always a matter of common sense. Subjectively I imagine you're pissed of from being killed. The others who died are just evidence to the cause. Regardless, I believe Highsky's decision will take the forefront.

I will leave it at this.
Highsky is the big guy on top for TTT.
I'm sure i already know the answer and i will respect it and highsky himself.
you can reject this now, i just want a answer ffrom highsky himself.

[Jager]

given that gmod requires your tags be on in your steam friends name I wont dock anyone for not having them on as long as they clearly identify themselves in the server as an admin, if they "have" to use powers. That being said if you are playing undercover and arent an AO plus you better have a damn good reason for activating your admin powers. this is borderline.. so its worth sliding one time.

That being said intentionally ruining gameplay via "new" rules that are not within the spirit of the TTT or any mod aren't allowed on any server.

If you are willfully detracting from the detectives gameplay however by being a dick, then you getting shot seems like you got what you deserved at the time.

if you arent a traitor and you are making it easier for traitors to do their job, or messing with the detective you can be reasonably suspected of being a traitor yourself, as such its not an RDM. QQ if you want, but if it walks, talks, and acts like a duck, its probably a traitor duck.

Ill let highsky muddle through the rest, and give specifics, but in general if you are an admin on SG you generally should have SG somewhere in your name while playing on any of our servers, unless you are NOT planning to activate powers ever.

Standard reasoning and logic applies here If you activate your powers due to JUST cause, you better have made it clear you are an admin, why you are activating your powers, and be prepared to defend yourself in the complaint WITHOUT US ASKING on why you did so. complaining after we bring it up makes it look like you either didnt care about the rules, or couldn't be arsed to fix your name.

A great example of this would be
"I was in gmod and some guy was scripting, I couldn't log out and back in at the time and get the demo, so I grabbed the proof then used admin chat to clearly ID myself as "Your admin name here" and take appropriate action. he failed to respond to warnings and so I banned him while using this name."

That specifically allows us to know that it was a legit admin and during maintenance I dont just find a random name/steamid using powers that I don't recognize. I just turn those people off until I get a GOOD explanation. Even Higher ups generally use MA_admins to show in the logs they are legit if their name doesn't match their recorded info.

Even if you do as above, the Higherups reserve the right to punish you for breaking the "no tags no powers rule" if we decide that the scenario or your choice in doing so was improper.

[PotshotPolka]

I know this is obviously the wrong section for this, and we really ought to move this to the Rules/TTT section.

The norms/rules in place until now we all abide by from my understanding were this:



Admins (used) to all have Gold names, thus their identity was clear. Gmod names are your actual Steam name, so we can't help that and other admins have other clan tags in them. I've been on TTT for MONTHS without having a tag in my name and was automatically recognized because of the gold. Same goes for many other admins and if you choose to pull the "no tags" thing on him here you ought to make a general statement to all TTT admins. There has NEVER been a message directed at admins while I've been there with other AO+s to put on my tags, and I've had to use admin powers in their presence. So if you want to enforce tags from now on there, fine. Don't just drop the hammer on us with no warning.
A detective, or for that matter "deputized" players cleared by a detective by getting tested/killing traitors can and have enforced rules on the rest of the populace, I.E. ordering players to get tested, and if they refuse, killing them for disobeying orders and thus leading the detective to believe their actions were traitorous. Detectives do not necessarily have to do this, they can just do whatever the hell they want as long as they don't break server rules, but its an established norm that they can order players to be killed. Doing so for arbitrary reasons like turning on lights is just bending these norms to the point that the said player is simply griefing, and is normally warned by an admin to desist.
Please don't start trying to enforce concrete rules into TTT gameplay like you have into PB. Allowing no slack in interpretation makes the game susceptible to more complaints, more grief, and less flow. You'll have as many RDM complaints as you already have freekilling complaints on PB. We do a good job keeping the trash out and most player's experience on our server is positive if not great.

[High]

Let me clarify, Bad dog made no effort to identify himself as admin when doing said action(Slaying joo.) And yes, make it clear you are an admin, i know gmod doesn't have that shit, but at least identify yourself as an admin if you arent wearing the tags when you do stuff. "yes i am an admin, here's what you did wrong, you killed the detective because he rdm'd you 5 rounds ago because he looked at you funny, enjoy your ban"


A detective, or for that matter "deputized" players cleared by a detective by getting tested/killing traitors can and have enforced rules on the rest of the populace, I.E. ordering players to get tested, and if they refuse, killing them for disobeying orders and thus leading the detective to believe their actions were traitorous. Detectives do not necessarily have to do this, they can just do whatever the hell they want as long as they don't break server rules, but its an established norm that they can order players to be killed. Doing so for arbitrary reasons like turning on lights is just bending these norms to the point that the said player is simply griefing, and is normally warned by an admin to desist.

Bolded for clarity, as that typically goes both ways, The detectives are usually paranoid for a reason and don't say that overtrolling the detective and bitching because you got shot for it, is a justification for jailing/slaying.

The only times i've had to enforce any rules on TTT is when we've had idiots rdm the detective for stupid petty shit(not giving them a health station, rdming them the round before as an innocent.)

[Metal]

Also adding to pots post.

The rules should be guildlines and not rules.
Explain your kills.
If you think someone is the T and you have proof, kill them than explain your reason next round.
If a admin jails/slay/kick/bans you, report it to a higher up.

TTT is a great game, and should not be that hard to control, yet we have this problem.
I think all SA and members of TTT should post what kind of rules they want


Let me clarify, Bad dog made no effort to identify himself as admin when doing said action(Slaying joo.) And yes, make it clear you are an admin, i know gmod doesn't have that shit, but at least identify yourself as an admin if you arent wearing the tags when you do stuff. "yes i am an admin, here's what you did wrong, you killed the detective because he rdm'd you 5 rounds ago because he looked at you funny, enjoy your ban"

....BadDog is a reg, TTT/Gmod sucks.
If he wanted to change he would have to leave gmod and go to steam settings.
He proved he was admin by saying ill slay you, jail you etc.
Oh by the way YELLOW NAME.

Bad Dog is a great admin on TTT and is active.
He gives fair jails/slays/kicks/ban as do the other staff of TTT.
You identify yourself as admin do to the powers you use.

[High]

We are not turning this into another pb with 100000000000000000000000 rules and guidelines.

[Bad Dog]

I know this is obviously the wrong section for this, and we really ought to move this to the Rules/TTT section.

The norms/rules in place until now we all abide by from my understanding were this:



Admins (used) to all have Gold names, thus their identity was clear. Gmod names are your actual Steam name, so we can't help that and other admins have other clan tags in them. I've been on TTT for MONTHS without having a tag in my name and was automatically recognized because of the gold. Same goes for many other admins and if you choose to pull the "no tags" thing on him here you ought to make a general statement to all TTT admins. There has NEVER been a message directed at admins while I've been there with other AO+s to put on my tags, and I've had to use admin powers in their presence. So if you want to enforce tags from now on there, fine. Don't just drop the hammer on us with no warning.
A detective, or for that matter "deputized" players cleared by a detective by getting tested/killing traitors can and have enforced rules on the rest of the populace, I.E. ordering players to get tested, and if they refuse, killing them for disobeying orders and thus leading the detective to believe their actions were traitorous. Detectives do not necessarily have to do this, they can just do whatever the hell they want as long as they don't break server rules, but its an established norm that they can order players to be killed. Doing so for arbitrary reasons like turning on lights is just bending these norms to the point that the said player is simply griefing, and is normally warned by an admin to desist.
Please don't start trying to enforce concrete rules into TTT gameplay like you have into PB. Allowing no slack in interpretation makes the game susceptible to more complaints, more grief, and less flow. You'll have as many RDM complaints as you already have freekilling complaints on PB. We do a good job keeping the trash out and most player's experience on our server is positive if not great.


Exactly this. If its that big of a deal I can put tags on, though every player in that server knows me and knows I am an admin since most of them come to me if there are RDMers about and because my name is in gold.

[Metal]

We are not turning this into another pb with 100000000000000000000000 rules and guidelines.

Ok lets hope, but how about letting some stuff slide.
Hell HighSky, just leave the TTT SA's alone.
Let them do their job and after the SA's do their job, they will explain to the person what they did.

But sadly the other day, bad dog did not explain because of what happened.
Let the tags slide man, its no big deal as long as the admin explains to the person what they did wrong.

[iNorris]

Um...will Joo step forward to present his case?

[Metal]

Um...will Joo step forward to present his case?

He already did.

Edit the title..of thread.

[SgtJoo]

Um...will Joo step forward to present his case?

Already said what I had to say. I really didn't have an issue with being jailed/slayed because it's just a game, but I did feel it was a little unfair. I'm the detective and I say don't turn off the lights because it helps the traitors (which is true, it does) and someone proceeds to do it. I kill him, tell everyone why and warn innocents not to do it again. People then started turning the lights off to piss me off, even though I warned them not to do it in voice, in chat, in chat in caps, etc.

Lights being turned off = easier knifes, c4s, traitor kills, period. It's not arbitrary. I'm not saying "Hey, pick up that crate with a Magneto-Stick and die!" It's a simple request that benefits YOU the Innocent and not the traitors.

[KScorp]

Since we're sort of on the topic of rules...

People are slayed for RDM way too often. TTT is a game of suspicion, not proof. If you have solid proof, good for you. It's the traitors' own fault for not disposing of it properly. Otherwise, you should deduct who is the traitor through other evidence, such as not seeing someone for a while, or finding a burn mark where someone came from.

RDM shouldn't be "an innocent killed an innocent". That HAS to happen. The traitors should MAKE it happen. People should be able to take risks, that can be a benefit for both the innocent and the traitors, depending on how they take advantage of this. If I would define RDM, it would be "Killing with no reason to suspect them", "abusing killing people with minimal suspicion", and "Killing a detective". And, in some cases, "killing a person who has proved himself to be innocent, and confirmed to be innocent by a detective."

Admins and players often fail to see things from the other person's perspective. Things that look very suspicious to some, look innocent to others. For instance, I recently attacked two people, because to me it looked like they both came from the direction of an unidentified body that was killed a few seconds ago (although they took different paths). I accused them both (correctly) as traitors and killed both. However, one of the traitors (who was an admin, I can't recall who), said I RDMed because he was nowhere near the fight, and didn't even see the body. That's probably true. The thing is, people shouldn't be so quick to judge on what ACTUALLY happened, they should look at things from another perspective.

TL;DR

People are too quick to accuse people of RDM. TTT is a game of suspicion, not proof. RDM should only be for truly random killing without reason to suspect someone, killing detectives, or killing people repeatedly with minimal suspicion. Otherwise, let the game be played how it's meant to be: abusing the innocent's lack of knowledge of who's innocent and who's not.

[Metal]

Already said what I had to say. I really didn't have an issue with being jailed/slayed because it's just a game, but I did feel it was a little unfair. I'm the detective and I say don't turn off the lights because it helps the traitors (which is true, it does) and someone proceeds to do it. I kill him, tell everyone why and warn innocents not to do it again. People then started turning the lights off to piss me off, even though I warned them not to do it in voice, in chat, in chat in caps, etc.

Lights being turned off = easier knifes, c4s, traitor kills, period. It's not arbitrary. I'm not saying "Hey, pick up that crate with a Magneto-Stick and die!" It's a simple request that benefits YOU the Innocent and not the traitors.

I agree and im sorry, but this thread is now about the rules

[Dracula]

Since we're sort of on the topic of rules...

People are slayed for RDM way too often. TTT is a game of suspicion, not proof. If you have solid proof, good for you. It's the traitors' own fault for not disposing of it properly. Otherwise, you should deduct who is the traitor through other evidence, such as not seeing someone for a while, or finding a burn mark where someone came from.

RDM shouldn't be "an innocent killed an innocent". That HAS to happen. The traitors should MAKE it happen. People should be able to take risks, that can be a benefit for both the innocent and the traitors, depending on how they take advantage of this. If I would define RDM, it would be "Killing with no reason to suspect them", "abusing killing people with minimal suspicion", and "Killing a detective". And, in some cases, "killing a person who has proved himself to be innocent, and confirmed to be innocent by a detective."

Admins and players often fail to see things from the other person's perspective. Things that look very suspicious to some, look innocent to others. For instance, I recently attacked two people, because to me it looked like they both came from the direction of an unidentified body that was killed a few seconds ago (although they took different paths). I accused them both (correctly) as traitors and killed both. However, one of the traitors (who was an admin, I can't recall who), said I RDMed because he was nowhere near the fight, and didn't even see the body. That's probably true. The thing is, people shouldn't be so quick to judge on what ACTUALLY happened, they should look at things from another perspective.

TL;DR

People are too quick to accuse people of RDM. TTT is a game of suspicion, not proof. RDM should only be for truly random killing without reason to suspect someone, killing detectives, or killing people repeatedly with minimal suspicion. Otherwise, let the game be played how it's meant to be: abusing the innocent's lack of knowledge of who's innocent and who's not.

QFT

[Jager]

I agree and im sorry, but this thread is now about the rules

no this thread was about the complaint and answering questions specific to it and the rules that were in question with this complaint. if you have specific rules discussion beyond this then feel free to post on the currently running TTT light thread in the TTT rules discussion forum.