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SgtJoo
29 Apr 2010, 01:02pm
I was deciding between the two sections of News and Politics and I erred on the side of caution by putting it here. This (white) 16 year old died from an auto accident (no seatbelt) and kids put stuff like RIP, flowers, etc. in their parking space for their pickup at school. This is in the South mind you (South Johnston High School in North Carolina)... well someone decided to put a confederate flag in the dead student's parking space.

"An anonymous caller wants us to know that South Johnston High School took down the flag that the students erected at the dead student’s parking spot. The Stars and Bars was removed as officials deem it racist. The first official flag of the Confederacy, called the "Stars and Bars," was flown from March 5, 1861, to May 26, 1863. While the flag itself is not really a symbol of racism, it's a symbol for people who like to keep racism alive."

That's the email to the news station where I got this info from, and here's the accompanying picture:

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o132/Gaiaus/cflag.jpg

Thoughts? Appropriate action?

Drox
29 Apr 2010, 01:19pm
Whats wrong with it? Let it fly, it isnt hurting a god damn person. :\ But then again, we live in a country where if someone doesnt completely understand what a symbol means to some they deem it evil by what means they do/can understand it.

Supa
29 Apr 2010, 01:39pm
It wouldn't offend me per say, but the flag does represents a dark period in our countries history. Probably better that it isn't there.

Drox
29 Apr 2010, 02:17pm
It wouldn't offend me per say, but the flag does represents a dark period in our countries history. Probably better that it isn't there.

Our American Flag represents such a dark period aswell to American Natives, should we take that down also? lol

SgtJoo
29 Apr 2010, 02:19pm
Well I mean it would be different imo if it was a black kid. Racist? Definitely. But a good ol boy from the south dies? Southern heritage/pride to me.

Supa
29 Apr 2010, 02:49pm
Our American Flag represents such a dark period aswell to American Natives, should we take that down also? lol

The American Flag doesn't represent the early settlers taking over the Native American land. It was made after our independence in 1776, which in no way relates to Native Americans. I have never heard any Native Americans have offense to the Stripes and Stars. The Confederate flag however, has had many issues.

Besides if the school wanted, they could take down the American Flag too. There is no law saying you must wave it, as far as I know.

trakaill
29 Apr 2010, 03:06pm
While the flag itself is not really a symbol of racism, it's a symbol for people who like to keep racism alive."





Thoughts? Appropriate action?


Whats wrong with it? Let it fly, it isnt hurting a god damn person. :\ But then again, we live in a country where if someone doesnt completely understand what a symbol means to some they deem it evil by what means they do/can understand it.

Its the right thing to do to keep people from QQing..
Since there is a minimum of black kids in that school some parent would have retaliated ...

I dont necessarily agree I just see their point of view...
America is all about liability and protecting your ass which is what the school did...

Toxin
29 Apr 2010, 03:37pm
Freedom of Speech....
nothing wrong with it.
Heck, Freedom of speech would've still applied if he put a fucking swastika up there. It's the people who make it what it is.

Supa
29 Apr 2010, 03:48pm
Freedom of Speech....
nothing wrong with it.
Heck, Freedom of speech would've still applied if he put a fucking swastika up there. It's the people who make it what it is.

Nobody isn't saying they can't wave it on there own property. That's well within the right of free speech. The school doesn't want it on there property, nothing wrong with that. I don't see what the issue is here, to be honest. Every other public facility would do the same thing. It's just not worth the issues that would arise from it.

Toxin
29 Apr 2010, 03:53pm
Nobody isn't saying they can't wave it on there own property. That's well within the right of free speech. The school doesn't want it on there property, nothing wrong with that. I don't see what the issue is here, to be honest. Every other public facility would do the same thing. It's just not worth the issues that would arise from it.

It's the Confederate Flag... Jesus Christ.
I could well see this turning into the next Tinker vs. Des Moines

SgtJoo
29 Apr 2010, 03:57pm
It's the Confederate Flag... Jesus Christ.
I could well see this turning into the next Tinker vs. Des Moines

Nobody's really made a big deal out of it locally.

Here's the story of the crash but the only mention of the flag is in the photo gallery which is just the photo, lol.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=7410792

I like the statement that reinforces Darwin's case...

"I always tell him, I said, you hard-headed, you ought to wear that seatbelt and his driver's side seatbelt, he had cut that thing out or it was gone," Carr said. "He said he couldn't stand wearing a seatbelt, it hurt his neck, he could not stand wearing a seat belt at all.

Supa
29 Apr 2010, 04:11pm
It's the Confederate Flag... Jesus Christ.
I could well see this turning into the next Tinker vs. Des Moines

Jeez, now you're bringing religion into this... :blink1:

Lordcrazy
29 Apr 2010, 04:58pm
I'm pretty sure its illegal because its a sign of treason...

Drox
29 Apr 2010, 05:11pm
The American Flag doesn't represent the early settlers taking over the Native American land. It was made after our independence in 1776, which in no way relates to Native Americans. I have never heard any Native Americans have offense to the Stripes and Stars. The Confederate flag however, has had many issues.

Besides if the school wanted, they could take down the American Flag too. There is no law saying you must wave it, as far as I know.

Ure kidding right? What we did to Native Americans before America was a country dont even compare to what we did to them when we were a country after 1776. Andrew Jackson ring a bell? ;) Some Native American reservations hate him so much they refuse to take 20 dollar bills that have his face on it because of what he did as a US general and as our 7th President of the US. Look it up bro

Drox
29 Apr 2010, 05:45pm
bVZq73zuOSc

this sums up my conversation about this

Mcbride
29 Apr 2010, 07:44pm
i dont think they should have taken it down, hes southern, its southern heritage, just like me my school doesnt tell me to not wave my Confederate flag from my Trucks Antennae, they've told me one time and i told them its my southern heritage, they can kiss my country ass =)

b0red
29 Apr 2010, 08:09pm
i dont think they should have taken it down, hes southern, its southern heritage, just like me my school doesnt tell me to not wave my Confederate flag from my Trucks Antennae, they've told me one time and i told them its my southern heritage, they can kiss my country ass =)

no hate, just pride

SilentGuns
29 Apr 2010, 10:38pm
A flag for a racist country that once existed, some people might be offended. But then again they have to remember that the Confederate Union got crushed. The right to use the flag is freedom of speech and like a ummm... conselation prize?

Shadowex3
29 Apr 2010, 10:41pm
Yay law student tiem! Students at school are considered a Captive Audience, they don't have the choice to not be there. That's why there are restrictions on partisan things like prayer, the southern flag, and politics in place.

Although personally as a self-respecting southern boy with strong roots in Virginia and Alabama the stars and bars is equivalent to a swastika. It is the chosen sign of a people who refused and still refuse to acknowledge that certain groups of people are human beings, let alone equal.

Drox
29 Apr 2010, 11:04pm
Although personally as a self-respecting southern boy with strong roots in Virginia and Alabama the stars and bars is equivalent to a swastika. It is the chosen sign of a people who refused and still refuse to acknowledge that certain groups of people are human beings, let alone equal.

how does the southern flag have anything to do with what nazi's believe? lol Not to mention those who carry any of those also carry the American flag in their rallies, so I guess the American flag also stands for purging other human beings also. :P Different flags have different meaning for different cultures, lets pull our head out of our asses for a second and look for different points of view.

Not to mention during the civil war the Confederate's werent just the racist and the Union was the hero's who loved every race. The union hated blacks just as much if not more then the south and couldnt give two shits about those people. People who use the flag for hate today dont know shit about why they carry it let alone anything else.

Italian Jew
29 Apr 2010, 11:12pm
Blame the ignorant rednecks for tarnishing whatever dignified meaning the flag had.

SgtJoo
30 Apr 2010, 09:40am
Yay law student tiem! Students at school are considered a Captive Audience, they don't have the choice to not be there. That's why there are restrictions on partisan things like prayer, the southern flag, and politics in place.

Although personally as a self-respecting southern boy with strong roots in Virginia and Alabama the stars and bars is equivalent to a swastika. It is the chosen sign of a people who refused and still refuse to acknowledge that certain groups of people are human beings, let alone equal.

What if they're over 16? It's a choice after then...

Shadowex3
30 Apr 2010, 05:36pm
That's both disingenuous and a logical fallacy, a bullshit choice that's pretty much completely untenable is still no choice at all.

BlackEagle
30 Apr 2010, 05:42pm
What if they're over 16? It's a choice after then...

I don't know for 100% but as far as I know the school is still legally responsible for them unless they dropout. Ask the law student though. This is just what my understanding is.

Drox
30 Apr 2010, 06:08pm
A school does have the right to stop you from expressing anything, for example when I was in high school they banned the wearing of any confederate items. Its just how shit works, liberal thing to do is to deem it racist and be done with it without actually discussing why the child may be wearing it or displaying it which could hold a logical reasoning. lol

SgtJoo
1 May 2010, 04:36pm
That's both disingenuous and a logical fallacy, a bullshit choice that's pretty much completely untenable is still no choice at all.

Tinker v Des Moines?

Shadowex3
1 May 2010, 05:18pm
Tinker v Des Moines ruled that schools could not restrict a student's rights so long as that student was not causing a disruption to the school process, in this case the kids were wearing black armbands to protest vietnam.

Guiles v Marineau took it a step further and ruled that a school cannot use it's dress code/regulations to restrict freedom of speech by claiming that some part of a student's speech was a violation as long as that part was considered an inherent part of the message.

Since that sentence is a bitch: In the original case a student had a shirt with Dubya doing drugs on it, and depictions of drugs/alcohol were against school policy. The SCotUS decided that since the drugs were an inherent part of the message about Dubya's past drug abuse the school could not prohibit the student from wearing the shirt even though in part or in whole it violated the school's policies.

HOWEVER none of this applies to the confederate flag any more than it does to swastikas because, especially with a captive audience and especially with minors, hate speech is almost universally not considered to be protected speech because almost everywhere has a "fighting words" law on the books. Hell where I live in Florida the police sometimes even consider someone waving a swastika or starsNbars at minorities to be equivalent to a credible vocalized threat to that person's life (equivalent to a burning cross on the lawn).

That's why we ask "Free as in speech or free as in beer".

SgtJoo
1 May 2010, 05:59pm
Tinker v Des Moines ruled that schools could not restrict a student's rights so long as that student was not causing a disruption to the school process, in this case the kids were wearing black armbands to protest vietnam.

Guiles v Marineau took it a step further and ruled that a school cannot use it's dress code/regulations to restrict freedom of speech by claiming that some part of a student's speech was a violation as long as that part was considered an inherent part of the message.

Since that sentence is a bitch: In the original case a student had a shirt with Dubya doing drugs on it, and depictions of drugs/alcohol were against school policy. The SCotUS decided that since the drugs were an inherent part of the message about Dubya's past drug abuse the school could not prohibit the student from wearing the shirt even though in part or in whole it violated the school's policies.

HOWEVER none of this applies to the confederate flag any more than it does to swastikas because, especially with a captive audience and especially with minors, hate speech is almost universally not considered to be protected speech because almost everywhere has a "fighting words" law on the books. Hell where I live in Florida the police sometimes even consider someone waving a swastika or starsNbars at minorities to be equivalent to a credible vocalized threat to that person's life (equivalent to a burning cross on the lawn).

That's why we ask "Free as in speech or free as in beer".

Interesting. I guess you're more qualified law wise to talk about it than I am, but what makes the confederate flag hate speech? Considering the student was white and not black, why isn't it a celebration of Southern heritage?

Drox
1 May 2010, 06:18pm
Interesting. I guess you're more qualified law wise to talk about it than I am, but what makes the confederate flag hate speech? Considering the student was white and not black, why isn't it a celebration of Southern heritage?

Its just the way of thinking, when people think of the flag they either dont know it or dont care to understand it. So they get to define it exclusively. They do have a right to be concern depending on what the persons belief is with using the flag but they dont ask. They deem it racist by just what they know instead of trying to understand a different point of view. So its mostly political correctness.

Shadowex3
2 May 2010, 05:11am
Again, the reason the Union Naval Jack and flag of the Tennessee Confederate Army* are considered to be hate speech rather than symbols of "states rights" or "southern heritage" is the same reason as the Swastika. It's the flag of a nation that firmly believed that entire groups of people were not even human beings. You may as well the Swastika and the Union Jack interchangeably, they stand for the same thing: a violent and extremist government that was obsessed with their own racial superiority.

There's no heritage to celebrate there any more than there's a heritage for a german to celebrate by hoisting up '45 Reichskriegsflagge. These flags are not national flags of the confederacy, they are military war standards.


*Yeah, it's not even the Confederate Flag, the two most common are the Confederate Union Naval Jack and the flag of the Tennessee Army.

yardy
2 May 2010, 05:14am
Freedom of Speech... nuf said... and it is not racist.... but it can be...

SgtJoo
2 May 2010, 06:37am
Freedom of Speech... nuf said... and it is not racist.... but it can be...

Did you not read the last page? >_>

So I could hoist this up without a problem Shadow? Or are you just nitpicking?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/CSA_FLAG_28.11.1861-1.5.1863.svg/800px-CSA_FLAG_28.11.1861-1.5.1863.svg.png

XeNo
2 May 2010, 10:51am
I laughed so fucking hard, it's like someone just went up and claimed the dead kids parking spot confederate land because he couldn't claim it anymore.

That's hilarious.

/dev/null
2 May 2010, 08:31pm
With the logic of a lot of people here I guess we should denounce the Union and Lincoln also. The people in the North were just as racist. Quoting Abraham Lincoln:


I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

People forget that one of the big issues with the Civil War was states rights. We wouldn't be having some of the problems today with the Federal Government ignoring the Constitution and not giving the states the authority they should have. Both sides of the political spectrum have been violating the Constitution for far too long. If the war had been resolved differently maybe we wouldn't be where we are today.

Drox
2 May 2010, 09:57pm
With the logic of a lot of people here I guess we should denounce the Union and Lincoln also. The people in the North were just as racist. Quoting Abraham Lincoln:



People forget that one of the big issues with the Civil War was states rights. We wouldn't be having some of the problems today with the Federal Government ignoring the Constitution and not giving the states the authority they should have. Both sides of the political spectrum have been violating the Constitution for far too long. If the war had been resolved differently maybe we wouldn't be where we are today.

Like I said before its just political correctness, and god forbid you bring up anything bad about Lincoln the savior of our Union. :P lol Not to mention his socialist way of throwing northern news paper agencies in jail for writing anything bad about what he was doing.

Its just how it works lol the winners write history, the losers just have to deal with it even if they were Americans also. It just a sad fact of war, the flag however is something we can hold on to represent something that most Americans today dont know or dont care about anymore, and thats loyalty and pride in where you were born an raised.

Italian Jew
2 May 2010, 10:15pm
the flag however is something we can hold on to represent something that most Americans today dont know or dont care about anymore, and thats loyalty and pride in where you were born an raised.

So why don't they wave their state flags?

Supa
2 May 2010, 10:26pm
So why don't they wave their state flags?

Oh no you didn't...

Drox
2 May 2010, 10:56pm
So why don't they wave their state flags?

Like this one? ;)

http://www.stainlessbanners.com/photos/nc-battle-flag.jpg


Most people do wave their state flag but also have a deep connection to most of all the confederate flags of our past, since alot of us had family members back then who fought also. :P

Italian Jew
3 May 2010, 12:23am
Like this one? ;)

http://www.stainlessbanners.com/photos/nc-battle-flag.jpg


Most people do wave their state flag but also have a deep connection to most of all the confederate flags of our past, since alot of us had family members back then who fought also. :P

LEGITIMATE state flags, not ones the state politicians have to shy away from come election time.


It was designed as a battle flag and the basis for many. It represents many things completely different in nature because that's what it has been used for after its initial purpose. No representation is considered more right or wrong as each has its valid points, but where does that leave the one that says it represents pride where another believes it indicates racism?

People should be aware of the shit storm involved with such symbols and at least have some fair treatment of them. You either allow them entirely or you don't allow them at all. If you want to display the confederate battle flag, then you should allow someone to display, for instance, a Nazi flag. They each have separate meanings to different people, but you can validate one's reasoning for the support of the symbol.


I've known people willing to fly the confederate battle flag because of what it meant to them and not caring what anyone else thought. At the same time, they did not elicit the same behavior towards a flag representing something else, something they disagreed with or did not share the same view. It's just a double standard I have noticed that seems ironic.

If people cleaned up their image in relation to the flag, then there wouldn't be any controversy. There is always some redneck waving it at a KKK rally who makes the news or memories of people supporting segregation marching down the street. It needs a serious PR overhaul for acceptance.







As for the actual issue though, I support them taking it down from the school property, but if it were somewhere private, then it shouldn't be touched. I would say the same thing if it was a swastika of some variety being flown.

It's just the PR thing again. It represents both pride and racism to respective people, but the fact that it does represent racism to many people is the kicker. There is nothing wrong with removing something to prevent a big problem from occurring. There could be a problem that occurs from the removal, but if that problem is of a lesser magnitude, then it is a much better problem than the alternative.

Nobody will stop them from flying the flag in a private setting because it won't be a public problem. Once it has the potential to be a serious public problem, then you need to make the more responsible choice.





Serious question: Do you know anybody who would be upset because their cherished flag turned into beach towels, coasters, and other southern memorabilia?

Drox
3 May 2010, 12:47am
Serious question: Do you know anybody who would be upset because their cherished flag turned into beach towels, coasters, and other southern memorabilia?

Probably not since every flag gets turned into that shit, but I see what ure saying

Shadowex3
3 May 2010, 07:36am
Did you not read the last page? >_>

So I could hoist this up without a problem Shadow? Or are you just nitpicking?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/CSA_FLAG_28.11.1861-1.5.1863.svg/800px-CSA_FLAG_28.11.1861-1.5.1863.svg.png

depends, you mind if your neighbor hoists this? Or are you just hiding behind the "states rights" strawman?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/War_Ensign_of_Germany_1938-1945.svg/500px-War_Ensign_of_Germany_1938-1945.svg.png

Italian Jew
3 May 2010, 09:42am
depends, you mind if your neighbor hoists this? Or are you just hiding behind the "states rights" strawman?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/War_Ensign_of_Germany_1938-1945.svg/500px-War_Ensign_of_Germany_1938-1945.svg.png

I wouldn't mind if someone hoists that flag, especially if they were a veteran of the war. Now if someone were to display it on public property or misused in a "Nazi" rally, then I wouldn't be so thrilled about it.

SgtJoo
3 May 2010, 01:01pm
I mean the biggest thing about the whole deal was that it was on school (public) property. I'm sure if it was a memorial on private ground there would be no issues.

Drox
3 May 2010, 01:39pm
I guess most of us have to get offended when we see crosses (of most kinds), Islamic symbols, eagles (especially) and the French, British, Spanish, Prussian, Russian, Japanese, Italian and a few others (cba to go on) flags.

Not sure how this is really a reply to my statement? lol

SgtJoo
3 May 2010, 01:49pm
In the South though, especially in the Deep South you do see people with confederate flag memorabilia plastered everywhere. Lawn flags, house flags, bumper stickers, T-shirts, et. al. It's just the placement in a public school that was the issue here. I don't see the government forcing people to get rid of their other 'Southern merchandise'.

Drox
3 May 2010, 01:52pm
Ancestry, bro. It's a pretty nifty thing.

Crusades, Germany/Prussia, French, Spanish and British colonialism, and more recently: the World Wars.


If you're going to be offended by symbolism in the form of a flag you can't just pick and choose.

oh ok, I got ure point now. Well thats the problem, people get to pick and choose. Thats just the kind of mindset most people have.

Kuro
4 May 2010, 01:49am
The swastika (from Sanskrit svástika स्वस्तिक) is an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles, in either right-facing (卐) form or its mirrored left-facing (卍) form. Archaeological evidence of swastika-shaped ornaments dates from the Neolithic period in Ancient India. It occurs mainly in the modern day culture of India, sometimes as a geometrical motif and sometimes as a religious symbol. It remains widely used in Indian religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. Though once commonly used all over much of the world without stigma, because of its iconic usage in Nazi Germany the symbol has become stigmatized in the Western world, notably even outlawed in Germany.

just something to think about

Slavic
7 May 2010, 01:52pm
Confederate Flags to me equate to rebellion. Claim it Southern Pride or Heritage, but that flag was carried by armies who waged war against the USA and sought to invade our country. Ever instance where I have seen the flag carried and trotted around as "Southern Pride" has come coupled with ignorance and hate.

Drox
7 May 2010, 03:11pm
Confederate Flags to me equate to rebellion. Claim it Southern Pride or Heritage, but that flag was carried by armies who waged war against the USA and sought to invade our country. Ever instance where I have seen the flag carried and trotted around as "Southern Pride" has come coupled with ignorance and hate.

Invaded the US? The US soldiers invaded the south before Lee's Army ever went to PA in the north. lol Learn ure shit

Bilbo Baggins
7 May 2010, 03:26pm
In the context which it was put up I have no issue with it whatsoever... Freedom of speech and all the jazz. The only time I have issues with it is when it is displayed by the state government on the state capitol, I forgot which state did that, but they did it until pretty recently.

SgtJoo
7 May 2010, 04:21pm
Invaded the US? The US soldiers invaded the south before Lee's Army ever went to PA in the north. lol Learn ure shit

"The War of Northern Aggression"