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Kuro
17 Dec 2009, 03:00pm
So I was on facebookfails.com when i came across this.

http://facebookfails.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/insuranc.jpg

So what do you think? Is health care a right? or a privilege? Discuss!!!!

Jaffa
17 Dec 2009, 03:01pm
A right

Voltage
17 Dec 2009, 03:08pm
My damn taxes go to that bro.

Kuro
17 Dec 2009, 03:11pm
that's true ur taxes do go to pay for people who might not or choose not. But what if you got more from the government for the taxes you do pay?

Dracula
17 Dec 2009, 03:25pm
Privilege

Red
17 Dec 2009, 03:31pm
But what if you got more from the government for the taxes you do pay?

Then pigs would have wings and hell would freeze over.

And in THIS country I believe it should be a privilege. We weren't founded on hand outs.

People came/come to this country for the CHANCE to make a better life for themselves through hard work.

If people want free healthcare/to be taken care of by the government they should fuck off back to Europe. We should set up an exchange program with socialist/left leaning countries that have hard workers tired of taking care of everybody that's poor/lazy and would rather take care of themselves while working hard for it with the risk of exactly that, having to take care of yourself should the shit hit the fan, trade unproductive people for productive people willing to live with less big government "Help".

I do make an exception for people born with life crippling disabilities/illness, I think they should get help.

Health insurance companies need to be broken up and run more like Car insurance companies with national competition and individuals buying their own plans according to their needs. Not lumping everyone into mega groups where the healthy end up paying for the sick/fatasses in their work group.

Lux
17 Dec 2009, 05:05pm
I would say base it on what type of health care you would need, but then every time you have to pay it'd go to court and shit and be ridiculous........

Run over by drink driver = hardly your fault.....
Smoke and have cancer = pay or die.

b0red
17 Dec 2009, 05:17pm
Why should I pay for illegal aliens who do not pay taxes to be allowed to get health care.

Toxin
17 Dec 2009, 07:07pm
Obviously illegal aliens wouldn not get healthcare unless they manage to get their papers and identifications somehow... Anyways, I say it's a privilege.

LegalSmash
17 Dec 2009, 08:34pm
I'm not voting here because I think it falls between both, and my opinion has changed because I work in a closely intertwined field so I'll say this:

Healthcare in the sense of being able to get medical attention when necessary in order to stay alive should be a right, health care insurance purchasing is a business transaction... not so much a privilege.

If you are going to frame the argument as right versus privilege, and you are going to call the very act of getting preventative blood testing "health insurance" territory, then I think it should be a right... a healthy workforce is one that can work, and the argument that "poor people are gonna git da healthcares" doesn't fly because THOSE poor people get medicaid which we ALL pay for anyway. If this is going to be a matter of spending NOW for preventative care, rather than later when they are broke, on medicaid and we are paying for them anyway, I'd say basic health maintenance care should be a right... the decision to purchase insurance however, should be between the broker and the buyer.

That being said, the author of that initial facebook post has never read shit about the health insurance industry, they take in more profit per capita than any other US business, because they are not necessarily required to pay out at all, and they dont apply your premium towards treatment, but keep it... that in of itself, kills your facebook buddy's argument.

BTW, most of the people that dont have healthcare are middle class, because wages have not kept up with inflation, and no one has had the good sense of capping prices for premiums the way they do with power and utility costs. Poor people have medicaid, which is essentially govt healthcare... and WE all pay for it...except anyone who makes over a statutory amount, and all income they get after the threshhold is not taxed... go figure.

trakaill
17 Dec 2009, 11:23pm
Why should I pay for illegal aliens who do not pay taxes to be allowed to get health care.

You need to prove your here on a permanent residency (green card). or be a US citizen to benefit from anything the gov. could give you!?

Nice and clear post Legal!

tank40175
18 Dec 2009, 05:54am
Are you retarded? You need to prove your here on a permanent residency (green card). or be a US citizen to benefit from anything the gov. could give you!?

Nice and clear post Legal!

However in this current Bill there is a provision to provide for illegals. The 30 million people that the White House uses as peeps without coverage in America includes illegal aliens. As well as exagerated claims. The real number is actually about 10 million Americans that cannot get coverage that actually want it. But yet they are getting ready to spend 2.5 trillion every 10 years for just them? No, illegals are being included in current legislation.


Edit: Did not vote for some of the reasons that it depends on what type of situation you are reffering as all health care does not just belong in one or other.

trakaill
18 Dec 2009, 08:27am
However in this current Bill there is a provision to provide for illegals. The 30 million people that the White House uses as peeps without coverage in America includes illegal aliens. As well as exagerated claims. The real number is actually about 10 million Americans that cannot get coverage that actually want it. But yet they are getting ready to spend 2.5 trillion every 10 years for just them? No, illegals are being included in current legislation.


Edit: Did not vote for some of the reasons that it depends on what type of situation you are reffering as all health care does not just belong in one or other.

...If Im reading this correctly though illegal aliens are included in the budget but they still would not be benefiting from it... as you would still need to provide valid immigration paper to get it..

Edit: and according to some online article you would not be required to prove legal presence in the US (makes no sense what so ever)

I find this a little silly...and if they do benefit from its even sillier cause what about the other (huge number) of legal aliens here on visa that dont benefit from it cause they are not permanent resident but are here legally..Im guessing we are considered rich mofos if we can be here on a visa so we dont need it...

Edit: Apparently legal aliens could benefit from it too..I was wrong

Anyway Obamas view/plan on immigration are completely flawed, especially with the current economy!

LegalSmash
19 Dec 2009, 07:18am
re: illegal aliens

Its not that the govt WANTS to cover them, its that by their oath, doctors are required to stabilize EVERYONE who shows up to a hospital... otherwise its grounds for a serious law suit. The problem currently is that hospitals push the costs of treating illegals into a large pile and call it "bad debt" and write it off in a way, yet still charge you, me, and the rest of people for the service of doing it. Either way, someone ends up paying for it... by clearly defining what, where, when, and how will the illegal get treated, and with what methods, we prevent escalating costs due to their inevitable need to use the health care institutions in this country.

In other words, hospitals treating totally out of pocket and then raising their rates to compensate<govt setting specific rules by which to treat said illegals.

Its the lesser of two evils.

Also, consider this: illegals are a very SMALL minority of people that go to hospitals to get treated, and when they do, its mostly triage, which costs shit... the more likely frequent user of an emergency services hospital wing is a poorly educated person who makes too much to get medicaid, but not enough to afford private insurance... this is the LARGE majority of bad hospital debt.... not illegals.

Illegals are a scapegoat for politicians who don't want to call their populations disadvantaged the real problem for healthcare, because then a public option makes sense.

Breblo
21 Dec 2009, 09:32pm
I have not had to worry about this. I am from Canada and we have health care and in Canada we take advantage of it and let me just say, I believe that it should be a right. Oh and P.S. In Canada to receive the help from clinics and hospitals you have to present them your O.H.I.P. Card otherwise you have to pay, its pretty much a good system for us.

LegalSmash
23 Dec 2009, 06:15pm
I have not had to worry about this. I am from Canada and we have health care and in Canada we take advantage of it and let me just say, I believe that it should be a right. Oh and P.S. In Canada to receive the help from clinics and hospitals you have to present them your O.H.I.P. Card otherwise you have to pay, its pretty much a good system for us.

i would not have a problem with this sort of system regarding having cards for citizens

NormandyAlive
23 Dec 2009, 07:55pm
Free health care ftw

Slavic
23 Dec 2009, 08:09pm
Free health care ftw

Nothing is free. I hope you know that.

Red
23 Dec 2009, 09:37pm
He's from Sweden, they don't.

LegalSmash
24 Dec 2009, 11:05pm
senate passed their bill. the die is cast.

Jaffa
25 Dec 2009, 06:28am
i would not have a problem with this sort of system regarding having cards for citizens

UK you also require an NHS card, although emergency service doesn't require this.

Harpr33t
25 Dec 2009, 05:17pm
As for the illegals they should either bring up a way they can become documented by paying a free and part of their back taxes and THEN be covered.

/dev/null
6 Jan 2010, 09:50pm
What is up with the lack of transparency that Obama promised us? None of us like the lies in the Bush administration, how come it's ok with the Obama administration? They're working on the health care compromise behind closed doors. When it comes out to be viewed by everyone, I'm sure they're not going to give lawmakers enough time to read it over. They haven't been too concerned about being public with things so far. What gives?

Italian Jew
6 Jan 2010, 10:14pm
What gives?

Congress

NLS CEL
8 Jan 2010, 04:15pm
I can't decide.

I tend feel obligated to help others in need down to what i can survie on because I try to idealize personal altruism. However i feel bad if the system needs to force those who don't want to. If it could be run on optional income (lets say you needs to apply to have your tax dollars directed to it), then i would be on board. However its very unlikely that it could operate all the time with that kind method of funding, Unless we simiply reorganize the federal budget and took money from certain areas and towards a simplistic goverment plan. I could hear the outrage of money being taken from the average defense budget and put into a healthcare plan.

Repeat
8 Jan 2010, 08:18pm
Work hard. Make your life better. It's not your fellow citizen's responsibility to take care of your lazy ass. Our country was built on hard work, ingenuity, and bullets. People need to stop being little bitches and start working harder. America needs to get its shit together, get more awesome and get its hands out of places it doesn't belong.

Simmons1114
8 Jan 2010, 10:48pm
Think of it this way. The poor outnumber the rich lets not have another French revolution because some ppl are too attached to their money to do the right thing. And who cares if Mexicans get health care, they certainly deserve it, they do enough work around here.

LegalSmash
9 Jan 2010, 07:00am
What is up with the lack of transparency that Obama promised us? None of us like the lies in the Bush administration, how come it's ok with the Obama administration? They're working on the health care compromise behind closed doors. When it comes out to be viewed by everyone, I'm sure they're not going to give lawmakers enough time to read it over. They haven't been too concerned about being public with things so far. What gives?

Congress as a rule, works behind closed doors. As for transparancy, at least we are being told the nature of the bills and there is sufficient educational material, including the bill itself, for people to read.

Political posturing, to me, is more of a problem in this instance than transparancy. I've read pieces of both bills... there are good things, and there are questionable things. I consider the Nebraska deal and the antiabortion language to be bad things, but establishing a baseline of health care across the board, capping premiums, creating a national standard of efficiency and order for medical records and archiving, and essentially enforcing criminal penalties for attempting to double dip medicare are ALL good things.

I work closely with this whole issue, and let me tell you, government monopolization of providing healthcare, or enforcing strict standards upon the industry would not only save us money in the long run, but it would force doctors to be more thrifty, SHOULD THE ENTIRE LAW BE ENFORCED UPON THEM. This, in short, means the doctor loses his license and goes to jail for the FIRST medicaid/medicare fraud, whether it be a full contrast MRI or a UTI insertion.

I think that the partisan obstruction tactics being engaged in by members of the democrats own party who essentially won the election in 2008 on Bush v. Obama as opposed to Bush v. McCain (blue dogs) and GOP reps and senators throughout the entire affair over healthcare are the reason WHY the whole thing became such a shit storm.

The simple reality is this: Most of the people bitching about this at tea parties are either ON medicare, Medicaid, or are unemployed and DON'T have health care to begin with. This is ever disturbing to me because the government IS medicaid, it IS medicare, and we pay for their stupid asses anyway. There are not that many conservatives with money AT the tea parties because they are doing what some of us are still fortunate enough to be able to do: Go to work.

I don't particularly love the idea of paying a little more, but if I have the mental safety of knowing no matter what happened, I would not be bankrupted by illness, or made uninsurable, I'd be willing to deal.

Lastly, regarding taxation of income over 500K... the vast majority of this nation's history since the income tax, the tax was well over its current rate of 35% top marginal. In WWII the top rate was 92% of income and until 1986 they fluctuated between 50-70%. The 1986 code changes brought it to 39.5. The point is this: if tax cuts for the wealthy achieve anything, its to get more money in the pockets of the wealthy. They do not pass it down, and they generally don't go spend it on GM cars, Auntie May's haberdashery, and paying more for labor. As far as I am concerned, the rate for them should be stuck at 42% at minimum, and that be that.


Congress





I can't decide.

I tend feel obligated to help others in need down to what i can survie on because I try to idealize personal altruism. However i feel bad if the system needs to force those who don't want to. If it could be run on optional income (lets say you needs to apply to have your tax dollars directed to it), then i would be on board. However its very unlikely that it could operate all the time with that kind method of funding, Unless we simiply reorganize the federal budget and took money from certain areas and towards a simplistic goverment plan. I could hear the outrage of money being taken from the average defense budget and put into a healthcare plan.

Screw personal ideals. Your idea would mean no one would contribute... look at your tax return, or your parents. There is a "federal election campaign" donation box... do you have any idea how few people actually select it?

As for defense, if we would put money into R+D on useful equipment, and not more supersonic planes with massage seats... I'd care more about the defense budget... but since 1980, we've not bothered to develop a tank, or improve survivability of our infantry....we have F22s to engage some durkhas hiding in the trees though....

If we were developing helicopters, and tools to fight the wars of today, as opposed to a hypothetical conflict with russia on the plains of europe, I'd be upset at any prospect of lowering defense spending...however... we still have a glorified M16 with a new name and the same shitty flak vests we've had since Grenada. Our guys in Iraq many times had to have their family ship them their ballistic vests and plates... that, my friends, is a travesty.

The pentagon, particularly the Air Force and Navy's fixed wing design sections, need to be cured of their diarrhea of the wallet, and that money be routed to make a replacement for that deathtrap we call a black hawk.




Work hard. Make your life better. It's not your fellow citizen's responsibility to take care of your lazy ass. Our country was built on hard work, ingenuity, and bullets. People need to stop being little bitches and start working harder. America needs to get its shit together, get more awesome and get its hands out of places it doesn't belong.

Are you going to add anything to the proceedings here? That's great... America!!! Fuck yea!!! We'll half of the people's cases I see are still showing they are broke as fuck, sick, and desperate, despite their hard work, ingenuity and bullets.



Think of it this way. The poor outnumber the rich lets not have another French revolution because some ppl are too attached to their money to do the right thing. And who cares if Mexicans get health care, they certainly deserve it, they do enough work around here.

No. No citizenship or legal status, no benefits, IMHO... much of the time they work under table and do not pay into the taxes... they should be treated and stabilized at the hospital to avoid liability, and should then be charged the non-inflated price for the service....

Repeat
9 Jan 2010, 09:47pm
@ Legal

Goddamn right America, fuck yeah.

2DG
11 Jan 2010, 06:28am
Well, it's a right, even withoud money, and stuff, they'll help you if you're dieing.
Depending where you live though.

Metal
11 Jan 2010, 10:47am
Both

Its a right to have it, but also is a Privilege.
You can lose it.

trakaill
11 Jan 2010, 03:15pm
.
You can lose it.

How? If you are in Canada or france you cant...theyll pay no matter what!

/dev/null
13 Jan 2010, 10:49pm
LegalSmash:

I appreciate your insight. I agree that something needs to be done about health care in the US, but I don't really know if I trust those currently in Washington to fix it. In my opinion, many of them simply look out for their own political well-being and the support of special interest groups. I'd much rather see some term limits and get some of these sleeze balls (on both sides of the fence) kicked out and get some new people up there who are actually "in touch" with the American people.

Red
14 Jan 2010, 09:33am
Agree with devnull 100%

SchmoSalt
14 Jan 2010, 04:17pm
Privilege.

Ever heard of earning something? It generally involves you going out, getting a job, and you working. Not you sitting at home, collecting unemployment, and complaining about your life. Contrary to popular belief, there are jobs out there. People just need to apply themselves or *GASP* actually get an education.

I know it may sound like an alien concept to liberals, but they should try it out sometime. I'm not saying liberals are bad, it's just that they need to wake up and smell the coffee on certain issues like this one.

Now, if universal health care didn't involve putting my hard-earned tax money down the drain, I would support it. But this is not a perfect world made of lollipops and sparkles.

Red
15 Jan 2010, 08:41am
You must have to bite your tongue a lot living in SoCal lol

法務省
15 Jan 2010, 01:25pm
I live in the UK, and we get a 'free' healthcare here (Sure we pay for it with taxes, but then again I'm a student so I pay no tax except VAT), and I personally believe that it is a right for all people to have access to standard healthcare. Yeah, sure get private healthcare if you want to have premium service, but I for one love the NHS, even though it can suck quite badly at times, one of the controversies with the NHS is the fact that since they're on a budget they have to essentially 'decide' whether or not to give someone a life saving drug,

i.e. A man has serious illness, he will either live for 1 more year with this illness, but if he takes this drug, it will extend his life to 4 years. The drug costs £60,000 per a year. There's a child with a severely broken limb, if this limb cannot be repaired he will be paralysed for the rest of his life, the operation is going to cost £150,000, but the child will (hopefully) grow up to be a healthy productive adult of society. The man argues that he's paid taxes all his life. Which one do they choose to go with? Who's the priority? - I think this is one of the main concerns when it comes to state healthcare.

Red
15 Jan 2010, 01:30pm
but I for one love the NHS, even though it can suck quite badly at times, one of the controversies with the NHS is the fact that since they're on a budget they have to essentially 'decide' whether or not to give someone a life saving drug,

How in the living fuck can you love that?

法務省
15 Jan 2010, 01:59pm
How in the living fuck can you love that?

Because when it's good, it's brilliant. It's obvious you haven't experienced free healthcare, living in America and all, I think you'll find that quite a lot of people from European countries value state healthcare highly. I think that's the problem with some Americans is that they're far too Conservative/Republican when it comes to change.

P.S. I'm not saying you're a follower of the Republican party, I'm just simply stating that there are a lot of....traditionalists in America.

Red
15 Jan 2010, 02:14pm
P.S. I'm not saying you're a follower of the Republican party, I'm just simply stating that there are a lot of....traditionalists in America.

In the sense that I believe in what this country originally stood for; that people could come here to work hard to TRY and have a good life, that nothing would be guaranteed, yes, I'm a "traditionalist".

It's not a "problem" it's what made/makes America different from other countries, which is why I don't want it to emulate Europe.

I spent the first 18 years of my life growing up overseas, I've seen "Free" healthcare, I in fact have family in France that's on it right now, and I've had family come to the US from Europe to receive faster/better healthcare. I'm actually a dual American/French Citizen, I was born in London as well (but you don't get British citizenship without a British parent, unlike the USA), ain't that funny.

It is possible for people who have lived abroad and seen other cultures to still in fact become libertarian/conservative, in fact, many things I've seen in poverty stricken countries made me an even more ardent anti-big government person. I've traveled internationally more in my first 20 odd years than most people will in their life-time, thanks to parents who made an effort to show me just how fortunate I was.

I have family that came to the US quite recently because they wanted the freedom and opportunity to try hard and succeed, and with that comes the responsibility of being accountable if you don't succeed.

In fact, I have family that fled Vietnam (I've flown to both North and South Vietnam on separate occasions to see the country where we did long road trips) and moved to France (With their free healthcare) and got fed up with the government there, then moved to the USA and stayed here and love it.

Now they're seeing the same big government crap that they ran away from come here because spoiled naive children of those original hard working immigrant families believe everything should be taken care of for them.

法務省
15 Jan 2010, 02:25pm
In the sense that I believe in what this country originally stood for; that people could come here to work hard to TRY and have a good life, that nothing would be guaranteed, yes, I'm a "traditionalist".

It's not a "problem" it's what made/makes America different from other countries, which is why I don't want it to emulate Europe.

I spent the first 18 years of my life growing up overseas, I've seen "Free" healthcare, I in fact have family in France that's on it right now, and I've had family come to the US from Europe to receive faster/better healthcare. I'm actually a dual American/French Citizen, I was born in London as well (but you don't get British citizenship without a British parent, unlike the USA), ain't that funny.

It is possible for people who have lived abroad and seen other cultures to still in fact become libertarian/conservative, in fact, many things I've seen in poverty stricken countries made me an even more ardent anti-big government person. I've travelled internationally more in my first 20 odd years than most people will in their life-time, thanks to parents who made an effort to show me just how fortunate I was.

I have family that came to the US quite recently because they wanted the freedom and opportunity to try hard and succeed, and with that comes the responsibility of being accountable if you don't succeed.

In fact, I have family that fled Vietnam and moved to France (With their free healthcare) and got fed up with the government there, then moved to the USA and stayed here and love it.

Now they're seeing the same big government crap that they ran away from come here because spoiled naive children of those original hard working immigrant families believe everything should be taken care of for them.

Oh, I agree entirely on the fact that America was supposed to be the "Land of the free and opportunity". I was just stating, especially being a student on low income, that I value free healthcare highly. I rarely go to the doctors, have never broken a bone, and the only time I went to casualty was when I had an asthma attack. I'm not trying to change what America's policies are, I wouldn't wish for anyone to do the same here in the UK if they were foreign.

I can also see your argument where essentially, having things like 'free' healthcare can make us lazy, as we get everything handed to us on a plate, but when you look at all the successful countries, bar America of course, nearly all of them have universal healthcare: Europe (most of), Canada, Japan, Russia, China (An upcoming super power), Australia, New Zealand, South Korean, to name a few.

I'm quite a liberal person, and you're entitled to your own opinions, I'm happy you haven't flamed like I know some other people would of on other forums (Possibly even this one).

SchmoSalt
15 Jan 2010, 02:31pm
You must have to bite your tongue a lot living in SoCal lol

Yeah, I used to get into arguments a lot over topics. Now, I just keep my mouth shut and shake my head since there is no use arguing over it.

Probably the reason why I hate politics other than politicians (I dislike all politicians). It does get on my nerve sometimes though how many people I argued with just follow, they don't think for themselves. I would respect them a lot more if they actually knew what they were arguing for. :\

I may of came off as some ultra-conservative in my earlier post, but assure you I am a moderate conservative. Depending on the issue, I take positions on both sides.

Red
15 Jan 2010, 02:58pm
I'm with you there SchmoSalt.

I'm not purely conservative, as I do have some libertarian leanings when it comes to personal social issues, but when it comes to big versus small government, I'm inclined to vote GOP out of necessity, as much as I'd love to vote 3rd party.

And Dept Of Justice:

I don't flame as much as I used to simply because I post in this section less than I used to and manage to remain (more) calm(er).