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LegalSmash
19 Aug 2009, 10:27am
Keep it civil, keep it at least NC-17 rated, and keep it on topic:

We are ranked 2nd in the world for health care expenditure as a nation, but 37 in quality and availability, yet are the 'superpower'.

Views, supporting points, and commentary on health care reform. I'll weigh in every 10 or so posts.

(My statistic comes from http://www.pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_study/Bankruptcy-2009.pdf)

DoubleSb
19 Aug 2009, 10:32am
Heard about this on the radio.
And I got an email about this saying we still have a choice, but with the eventuallity of other health insurances being own'd by this, we don't really have one.
Cheep shitty government healthcare or Expensive quality healthcare.
The government doesn't need to show any growth or hit a certaint point. :[

PotshotPolka
19 Aug 2009, 10:55am
wPC6CqAFA4E

I already gave a page long response to this in general so I abstain.

Repeat
19 Aug 2009, 12:08pm
Healthcare costs need to go down. I think we all feel this way. It's not only hurting the individual, but also the companies that employ us. (For those of us who are of career-working age.) The AVERAGE employer contribution for health insurance premiums for 2008 was $9,325 PER employee (insert over 9000 joke here) while $3,354 was paid by the employee, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. Case in point -- employers are getting TANKED here. Don't take this as a need to have government run healthcare. Not in the slightest.

I feel this can be accomplished by passing some tort reform, limiting the absolutely ridiculous lawsuits that are plaguing doctors and their practices. If they have to pay less for their insurance, they can charge less. Savings trickle down.

Secondly, insurance companies need to stop lumping individuals together in a group for company healthcare. I'm not sure how this could be accomplished, and I'm no professional on the matter, but if everyone could have their own little policy based on how healthy THEY are, instead of how healthy the rest of the group is, that could cut down costs. I work at a company where the average age is 53. You'd better believe our rates are pretty high.

Thirdy, and this has to do with my second point -- people need to have better life habits! Eat some damn vegetables every so often. Maybe throwin some fruit in the morning. Don't buy a fucking Segway Scooter (though they are cool) to get around your neighborhood. Also, companies need to continue to implement employee-wellness programs, and disease management programs. It'll save them money; it'll save us money.

The answer is NOT a government run healthcare option. Leave this up to what makes America great -- competitively run companies. Start a fire under their asses, though, and lets lower some costs a little. Easier said than done, I'm sure.

The government can't even run the post office in the black. To The Chosen One's admittance, the post office is the one having all of the problems. They mail things. Transport letters from place to place. Imagine having the government in charge of people's health...brain surgeries...organ transplants...I think not!


Say NO to government healthcare reform and YES to self-responsibilty. Contrary to what some believe, the government doesn't exist to hold your hand, treat you like a small child, and give you everything you want. The World's Most Perfect Human might have you believe otherwise.

5XTi-WdOu2s&eurl

Wrathek
19 Aug 2009, 12:15pm
The government can't even run the post office in the black. To The Chosen One's admittance, the post office is the one having all of the problems. They mail things. Transport letters from place to place. Imagine having the government in charge of people's health...brain surgeries...organ transplants...I think not!



I agree with most of your post except for bringing this up. Yes, it's sad that the government can't run the USPS with a profit, but the VERY outdated method in which they collect money would not net even a private company any profit. The whole reason the government runs the postal service is because it was determined from the beginning to be non-competitive and too great of a task for a company.

Repeat
19 Aug 2009, 12:24pm
I agree with most of your post except for bringing this up. Yes, it's sad that the government can't run the USPS with a profit, but the VERY outdated method in which they collect money would not net even a private company any profit. The whole reason the government runs the postal service is because it was determined from the beginning to be non-competitive and too great of a task for a company.

It's still scary, don't you think? That doesn't give me any more faith in their ability to manage healthcare.

Red
19 Aug 2009, 12:27pm
Health Insurance needs to be like car insurance. Based each individual, not bought en masse through the company you work for where healthy 20 somethings are lumped in with fat gigantor sloth 40+ year olds.

People that take care of themselves should be rewarded and put into their own category with other healthy people. All the whales that eat until they can't walk anymore and blame "Bad genes" should be grouped with the other whales and they should all pay higher premiums for it.

Wrathek
19 Aug 2009, 12:29pm
no, I agree, and thats why i agreed with the rest of your post. I think the only thing the government should do with healthcare are a few things,

1, like you said, rid of most of the malpractice suits by making anything beyond a deformity or death from a non-risky procedure impossible,

2, limit the amount of money that can be charged for things, with a special crackdown on labs and emergency rooms, they charge fucking ludicrous fees.

3, to help force #2, force the insurance companies, ALL OF THEM, to refuse to pay for these ludicrously high charges, which would in turn force the other half of the industry to charge less


edit: and fuck yes, what tamp said.

Repeat
19 Aug 2009, 12:29pm
Health Insurance needs to be like car insurance. Based each individual, not bought en masse through the company you work for where healthy 20 somethings are lumped in with fat gigantor sloth 40+ year olds.

People that take care of themselves should be rewarded and put into their own category with other healthy people. All the whales that eat until they can't walk anymore and blame "Bad genes" should be grouped with the other whales and they should all pay higher premiums for it.

This, this, this.

Some guy here just got back from his THIRD coronary declogging session. Fuck.

Itch
19 Aug 2009, 12:32pm
I vote to put Tampon & Repeat in charge of Healthcare reform and have our current administration focus on the economy!

Repeat
19 Aug 2009, 12:37pm
I vote to put Tampon & Repeat in charge of Healthcare reform and have our current administration focus on the economy!


Don't wish that on the economy!!!:dance: :dance: :dance:

Itch
19 Aug 2009, 12:44pm
Don't wish that on the economy!!!:dance: :dance: :dance:

You just made my day! Everyone in the office just asked what I'm laughing at!

Red
19 Aug 2009, 12:52pm
Don't wish that on the economy!!!:dance: :dance: :dance:

Seriously, I hope Itch was being sarcastic, hope.

Itch
19 Aug 2009, 12:56pm
Seriously, I hope Itch was being sarcastic, hope.

It was my way of saying that you both had valid arguments regarding Healthcare reform.
Not that I am in any way confident in our current administration.

LegalSmash
19 Aug 2009, 01:07pm
I feel this can be accomplished by passing some tort reform, limiting the absolutely ridiculous lawsuits that are plaguing doctors and their practices. If they have to pay less for their insurance, they can charge less. Savings trickle down.


5XTi-WdOu2s&eurl

As a lawyer, let me say this point is full of shit, and its one of these talking points being peddled which do little to nothing to add to the proceeding.

Okay, let me address this misconception regarding law suits and malpractice insurance:

First, there are federal laws that have severely limited frivolous claims in malpractice for medicine, and there are long procedures involved in each state to seek mediation rather than enter into court. This idea that MPI (malpractice insurance) is expensive because of lawsuits is horseshit.

This country has passed several tort reforms, and each state has their own tort reforms... technically however, tort is a creature of state law, and its up to each individual state to determine the standards they wish to hold medical professionals to.

In Florida, an attorney cannot recover more than 10% over 250K, and up to only 33% on anything up to 250K in a malpractice claim, believe it or not, that is shit pay when you factor in that you don't get paid for at least 6 mos, to 3 years depending on the matter, IF the case goes to trial. This is called contingency payment, and considering the amount of work that goes into a malpractice claim, the limits on payment are absurd.

MP claims in Fl have to go through a review by the insurance company before you even get to file a claim, to determine if the claim has merit, THEN, if the claim has merit and the ins company refuses to pay out, despite the doctor's wrongdoing, you can go to court.

This alone, is so in favor of the doctor it is ridiculous.

Bottom line is that lawyers who file frivolous lawsuits are severely sanctioned, or have their licenses swiped... its called Rule 11B, in the federal rules of civil procedure, or rule 3 of procedure in Florida. This is especially true in medical malpractice cases.

Reality is:

Malpractice cases happen because shitty doctors exist a LOT more often that good ones. The world paints these people saints when half the time the only thing that's remotely Godly about them is their likelihood of fucking over people with little to no regard.

Doctors tend to like the idea of not losing their ass in one fell swoop when they fuck up, much like any other licensed professional, or a homeowner when pitted against a hurricane. People want safety from fortuitous events. Doctors pay insurance premiums the company requires them to, despite the fact that they are high, because they want to be able to just pay their premium and keep driving their volvo in the event they leave a taco bell beef bell-grande burrito in a man's lung.


If the premiums are too high for your tastes, write your douchebag congressperson, because the reality is that the insurance industry as a whole is extremely unregulated, highly cut throat, and all but mandated as required by the government (its interesting that the government requires insurance, but allows the prices to skyrocket)

This is an interesting parallel to the debate over healthcare, should one bad incident bankrupt a doctor? In my opinion, it depends. If the doctor was acting in a manner consistent with a doctor of similar skill in his area, then compensation should be the cost of injury to the client/patient, and he should go upon his way.

If the doctor acted inappropriately, and out of the standard of care of a similarly skilled doctor in his area, the bastard should lose his license, or at minimum suffer financially. I could give a shit if his profession's motto is to save life where it needs it, because the reality is that the motto these days is more "save life if they are covered by our preferred network". If they wish to benefit from health insurance companies screwing us consistently,

So why can't this be applied to the average citizen? I exercise, eat well, do not have vices, yet I can't afford insurance, and if I get sick, I'm literally bankrupt. Yet, its okay for a doctor, who acts like a retard, severely injures someone, and because he pays into the insurance company, he gets to keep his license, to fuck up again AND you want him to gain additional legal protection? Ask yourself that question with you in the first position. Perhaps you CAN afford insurance, and you have it, and the doctor screws up as per the example... should you only receive the price of your co-payment, despite losing a leg? Your spinal column? An Eye? A set of ovaries and the ability to ever hug your own child?

Think about that seriously before you decide its a good idea to allow some jumped up, self important douche with a stained white coat off the hook because some talking head on TV and radio thinks that attorneys are somehow to blame...

I have little to no sympathy about their having to pay premiums which they helped cause. Doctors generally go into the profession for the money... such professions, much like mine, carry a great deal of risk with the power you wield.

"True, we build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.
John W. Davis"

Repeat
19 Aug 2009, 01:12pm
Don't take this the wrong way, but a lot of lawyers make their money based off these ambulance chasing practices. Which I feel is a huge reason they'd defend it.

What's your area of speciality in law? I don't recall.

LegalSmash
19 Aug 2009, 01:21pm
Don't take this the wrong way, but a lot of lawyers make their money based off these ambulance chasing practices. Which I feel is a huge reason they'd defend it.

What's your area of speciality in law? I don't recall.

That is called personal injury, its NOT medical malpractice. Further, ANY malpractice that occurs due to the injury suffered by the plaintiff is attributable to the defendant, unless the doctor pulled an epic fail, and then he MIGHT be liable.

Personal injury is tort law, and that area of the law is exactly where it needs to be, people need to learn to act less like fucking idiots, and life would be better.

I do general practice.

Caution
19 Aug 2009, 09:30pm
I don't understand how spending a trillion dollars (amount I heard on the news) will save us money on health care. What I also don't understand is why Obama stated something along the lines of "We don't want a pediatrician taking out your child's tonsils when he doesn't need them to be..." What I don't understand about that statement is that pediatricians aren't even certified (99% of the time) to make that call, LET ALONE do the actual operation. It sounds like he wasn't really prepared and just sort of said stuff to make his speech seem important. Also, I feel really bad for the elderly if this bill ever passes.

Anyways, who has the #1 health care system in the world if we are #2?

Delirium
19 Aug 2009, 10:16pm
Why waist money on a healthcare system that would be ineffecient? Its hard enough as it is to get into a CareNow right now, so what do you think is going to happen when the government takes over? there is going to be so much red tape that it would take months to get a child in for the flu.

VirDeBello
21 Aug 2009, 09:31am
Just join the military dudes, you get to fire guns, free medical care, below minimum wage pay and free college, whats not to love about the military? Kinda depressing hearing all this bad stuff and you are fighting in a different country and when you come back, its gonna be crap..... -.-

Wrathek
21 Aug 2009, 02:13pm
kind of depressing for us in college as well though. I have to go into debt for my schooling, and the job market isn't looking up, to put it nicely.

Red
21 Aug 2009, 02:20pm
It sounds like he wasn't really prepared and just sort of said stuff to make his speech seem important.

Pretty much sums up everything he says

Caution
21 Aug 2009, 04:25pm
Just join the military dudes

I sign up for Marine Corp DEP in a year, can't wait :)

Has anybody read the book Common Sense? I just started reading it and it's actually really good.

Delirium
23 Aug 2009, 02:24am
the one by Thomas Pain?

or the new economics one by that one chick?

Caution
23 Aug 2009, 06:31am
the one by Thomas Pain?

or the new economics one by that one chick?

Either one, but the one by Glenn Beck contains both versions.

AndreiD
25 Aug 2009, 04:16am
Healthcare is for socialists.
Why have cheap health care when you can just die, lulz.

zero
28 Aug 2009, 10:31am
Can someone explain this "public option" to me? I have yet the time to research it. My concerns are that :

1) Will I be forced to pay for me neighbor's health care and vice-versa? Will it increase taxes, etc? e.g., how is it funded?
2) More broadly, will I, or other people, be forced into anything at all?
3) Does this public option limit competition... will it drive out private options?

Actually, where's a good place I can find basic information about this public option proposal?

Jager
28 Aug 2009, 09:52pm
zero you already pay for your neighbors healthcare, assuming you have a job and are paying federal medicare and social security taxes. your money now goes to anyone on medicare/SS now and then down the road your kids/grandkids money goes to you assuming the system doesn't go bankrupt first.
the health plan bills being offered at this point simply extend that sort of coverage to more people and revamp the way its paid... or so they say. but its not a good system overall, and while medicare is great for insurance overall, (i spend less time with red tape to get urgent care.) day to day stuff can be much more difficult to sort out and know what i owe as far as copays etc.

that being said there are two bills on the table in each branch of congress, one says yes you will be forced to have insurance the other hasn't been clarified yet. but if you want to know the gist, look up the Massachusetts health care laws, that is a good "primer" for what most lawmakers hope to be forcing through. and there health care costs are ridiculous and many "scam" the system in various ways because there are many loopholes. so it certainly isnt a real fix for health care tbh without being dramatically overhauled itself.

Britain's NHS and Canada's national health care system are two other good examples of what is to be expected in general if you want to see pros and cons of the system. there are in many eyes many more cons then any pros that are brought to the table out of the NHS, but Canada 's system is praised fairly regularly. draw your own opinions though as its ridiculously partisan anyway you look at it.