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View Full Version : Those Who Try to Break SG Rules - Should They Be Held Accountable?



Elleon
28 Jul 2009, 07:04am
I don't want to beat a dead horse but the final judgement wasn't amde concerning this particular issue.

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This is the main issue and the only one that will and still does, present a problem.


Did any of the rockshooting lead to a direct teamkill before you froze or punished them?

Those players did not TK anyone and still recieved a freeze. I punish anyone who intentionally tries to TK players on the servers. I do the same for anyone who tries to glitch, use racism, mic spam, takes vehicles or lifts without teammates for no legitimate reason(Ex. Immediate Danger), or close doors on players for no legitimate reason. The rules clearly state what not to do, and I hold people accountable even if they try it.

I have already provided examples as to how I determine an individual's intentions and my history suggests nothing different.

http://www.steamgamers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21854

Still, I will admit, I never recieved direct permission from an AO to use or take such actions under these circumstances, but I never expected I needed to either. This is my wrong doing and I am opening it up for discussion and stand behind my actions, willing to take whatever punishment that may be neccesarry.

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I ask that more than one AO, all if possible, BD included if necesarry, take a look and make a vote, because this is an issue that will surely come into question at a later date, and I would prefer anything and everything be cleared up now, instead of then.

Thank you for your Time

P.s. - I have already supplied a network or examples, so please do not try to post a list of examples youselves(follow the link), merely state your opinions on the matter. If need be, I can provide more examples and cirumstances if the situation desperately needs it.

Dante
28 Jul 2009, 07:09am
So, are you not just going to drop this? Dude, it happened oh well, drop it already.


also, inb4thelock!

Elleon
28 Jul 2009, 07:11am
So, are you not just going to drop this? Dude, it happened oh well, drop it already.

also, inb4thelock!

I am not Dante, because I have been doing this for months and intend to do so for as long as I stay in SG. I have not recieved a proper answer on the subject and will not stop asking until I do.

Not only do I take these measures myself, but I have learned from a great number who have in the past, and I have and will, recommmend it to others as a safe, fair, and productive way to deal with players.

*********

EDIT: If anyone assumes that this thread is about Luxorz and his abilities to judge/rule a complaint, it is not. I am asking whether or not freezing those who intend and intentionally act, to try and break the rules, is an accepted and reasonable solution.

sylar
28 Jul 2009, 07:12am
so you mean people who TRY to break the rules, even if nothing happens [like if they try to TK and fail] they should be punished?

sounds like a good idea to me, they are doing wrong and they know it. whether it works or not doesnt matter, they still tried it.

Z3r0 M4ni4c
28 Jul 2009, 07:32am
To be honest elleon and i am a former admin. (so you know i have some experience with this)

When the person didnt TK-ed you cant freeze the person only warn him in this matter.
When a person is about to but didnt do it you cant punish the person with admin powers you warn him verbally as it is the best way to keep this running normal without all the QQ that comes after this.

as the shooting rock part i know that this must come from the ze_sst_b2 map.
when the person shoots it but nobody gets harmed by a tk you cant punish the person with a freeze but with a verbal warning.

This is how i and most of the admins also did back then.
it wont get you in trouble and wont get complains.
When the person does TK a person the nextround then you can punish the person with a freeze. (as what you would do)

but you cant punish a player just because he was trying to but didnt do it after all.
Like the rock example you cant just punish a person for that he didnt tk-ed a person.
there is no rule set that a person cant shoot at rocks.
The only rule there is for that is dont tk people.

if the intentions are there but the person fails or didnt succeed or didnt do it after all you cant punish.
only verbal warning is then better.

its the same story in everything.
Except: racism / aimbotting

thats a total different story but for the other rules.
When a person has intention but didnt do it after all or failed at it just a verbal warning nothing else.
If he ignores you just like jaffa said a quick freeze to get his attention will do.

Drox
28 Jul 2009, 07:36am
Honestly I dont see anything wrong with a freeze if you try to break the rules, its more laid back punishment then getting kicked or banned. So I think if someone is trying to break the rules to TK/block/or glitch other people, why shouldnt the admin be able to freeze that person as a warning? Since those 3 things are a no brainer when you think of rules lol anyone who says they didnt know they couldnt do any of that is full of shit.

Awacs
28 Jul 2009, 07:55am
I look at it this way. When someone gets TKed, their gameplay is disrupted. We punish the person who disrupted the gameplay by a freeze or kick. From what I gather, this is perfectly acceptable and completely legal by how the rules go.

Now, heres the tricky part. What should we do if someone is attempting to disrupt another players gameplay? Should we turn a blind eye until someone's gameplay is actually disrupted? Now, I don't agree with banning or kicking unless a TK occurred, but I do believe that a freeze is perfectly acceptable. You attempted to disrupt other people's gameplay but failed. I'll make you sit out and either learn not to do that or leave.

So from what I see, some people believe that attempting to break the rules and ruin others gameplay is unpunishable rule wise. I absolutely disagree.

Jaffa
28 Jul 2009, 08:03am
If you want to warn a particular player, and they are ignoring you in chatbox, i find a slap or a quick freeze is good to get their attention

Dracula
28 Jul 2009, 08:24am
To be honest elleon and i am a former admin. (so you know i have some experience with this)

When the person didnt TK-ed you cant freeze the person only warn him in this matter.
When a person is about to but didnt do it you cant punish the person with admin powers you warn him verbally as it is the best way to keep this running normal without all the QQ that comes after this.

as the shooting rock part i know that this must come from the ze_sst_b2 map.
when the person shoots it but nobody gets harmed by a tk you cant punish the person with a freeze but with a verbal warning.

This is how i and most of the admins also did back then.
it wont get you in trouble and wont get complains.
When the person does TK a person the nextround then you can punish the person with a freeze. (as what you would do)

but you cant punish a player just because he was trying to but didnt do it after all.
Like the rock example you cant just punish a person for that he didnt tk-ed a person.
there is no rule set that a person cant shoot at rocks.
The only rule there is for that is dont tk people.

if the intentions are there but the person fails or didnt succeed or didnt do it after all you cant punish.
only verbal warning is then better.

its the same story in everything.
Except: racism / aimbotting

thats a total different story but for the other rules.
When a person has intention but didnt do it after all or failed at it just a verbal warning nothing else.
If he ignores you just like jaffa said a quick freeze to get his attention will do.

This.

2 Dwarves, 1 Coat
28 Jul 2009, 10:49am
If you try to break a rule and you fail, you didn't break a rule. People who don't break rules shouldn't be

punished. Since trying and failing ends with the same result as not doing it at all, that would just be an

unfair slap/freeze for bad things the admins think you might do.

trakaill
28 Jul 2009, 12:04pm
To be honest elleon and i am a former admin. (so you know i have some experience with this)

When the person didnt TK-ed you cant freeze the person only warn him in this matter.
When a person is about to but didnt do it you cant punish the person with admin powers you warn him verbally as it is the best way to keep this running normal without all the QQ that comes after this.

as the shooting rock part i know that this must come from the ze_sst_b2 map.
when the person shoots it but nobody gets harmed by a tk you cant punish the person with a freeze but with a verbal warning.

This is how i and most of the admins also did back then.
it wont get you in trouble and wont get complains.
When the person does TK a person the nextround then you can punish the person with a freeze. (as what you would do)

but you cant punish a player just because he was trying to but didnt do it after all.
Like the rock example you cant just punish a person for that he didnt tk-ed a person.
there is no rule set that a person cant shoot at rocks.
The only rule there is for that is dont tk people.

if the intentions are there but the person fails or didnt succeed or didnt do it after all you cant punish.
only verbal warning is then better.

its the same story in everything.
Except: racism / aimbotting

thats a total different story but for the other rules.
When a person has intention but didnt do it after all or failed at it just a verbal warning nothing else.
If he ignores you just like jaffa said a quick freeze to get his attention will do.

Though this might be the right way to do it... when people shoot the rock repetitively it makes it annoying...

Rock shooting in most cases will end up Tking rather than he;ping the team....before I got admin a long time ago I was accused of shooting the rocks on Island escape and I was killed by the admin, for one it wasnt true I did not shoot the rocks but when I complained about the admin I was told that weakning the rocks was essentially TKing because your are just helping the guy thats gonna break them on teamates in the end...

I got this answer from supernublet or killermidget I forgot but apparently they were told by an BD so I think Elleon is doing just fine and people need to stop fucking around with the rocks on both these maps!

Elleon
28 Jul 2009, 12:14pm
If you want to warn a particular player, and they are ignoring you in chatbox, i find a slap or a quick freeze is good to get their attention

These would be the boundaries in which I made my decision regarding the freeze. Warning after warning is issued both in text and voice by myself and other admins, before we generally take action.

I typically try to give everyone a fair chance, and banning is the last resort, one that I have never cared to complete. I believe the freeze punishment is a great tool because it completely stops the player, forces them to pay attention and think about how they will act in the future, and allows any time for explanations. It is better than a kick or ban because it allows continuation if needed, considering admins and players do make mistakes. I am not so vain or ignorant that I cannot apologise for a mistake or misunderstanding, nor does it keep me from trying to correct it either.

After countless warnings over mic and chat, examples being made one after another, how do we finally react to that inevitable TKing player? Are we suppose to bias towards this indivual because we know damn well they were present during the warnings and knew what their actions would lead to? I have seen far too many instant bans, player/admin complaints, harsh and rash actions taken because a situation that could have been quelled easily, wasn't, and it ended up out of control.

I have noticed a difference on Escape when I am in-game, even if it may be small. I may not be liked very much or respected, but people know not to break the rules when I am around. They warn players to skip the shit because you won't get away with it, or they won't like whats comming. More and more players seem to help me or admins out by warning over mic, because they know something will happen eventually, completely unfair and out of their control. They expect some help, to some extent, and I try to give it to them without hesitation.

Personally, I think those results speak for themselves, and have believed they had for some time.

Drox
28 Jul 2009, 12:16pm
If you try to break a rule and you fail, you didn't break a rule. People who don't break rules shouldn't be

punished. Since trying and failing ends with the same result as not doing it at all, that would just be an

unfair slap/freeze for bad things the admins think you might do.

That would be like me jumping in front of you in the heli but failing to glitch you because you were able to move or the heli stopped before I got you out. You think I shouldnt be punished even tho my intentions were to break the rule?

2 Dwarves, 1 Coat
28 Jul 2009, 12:29pm
That would be like me jumping in front of you in the heli but failing to glitch you because you were able to move or the heli stopped before I got you out. You think I shouldnt be punished even tho my intentions were to break the rule?

I'll admit, you got me there. I give up and you win.

Drox
28 Jul 2009, 12:45pm
I'll admit, you got me there. I give up and you win.

I would prefer you to tell me what your opinion is on it, then just agreeing with me unless you truly feel that what is going on here is right by the said person being punished for doing what they did. lol

GrayFox
28 Jul 2009, 12:55pm
I'm just going to saw, Elleon yesterday you yelled at us for not holding a tram for ever single person, even though that tram was a good 90% full anyways. Not to mention there were zombies that were coming. You do a good job keeping things in order, but sometimes you might do too good of a job.

Dracula
28 Jul 2009, 12:57pm
I'm just going to saw, Elleon yesterday you yelled at us for not holding a tram for ever single person, even though that tram was a good 90% full anyways. Not to mention there were zombies that were coming. You do a good job keeping things in order, but sometimes you might do too good of a job.

These are the kind of things admins should not be doing on Escape just cause some people are slow or just generally suck at the map dose not mean others should have to suffer.

Drox
28 Jul 2009, 01:01pm
Ive never seen a admin punish someone for not holding something, but when 1 person takes something when there is nothing but CTs coming right behind that person, it is pretty douchebagish.

Elleon
28 Jul 2009, 01:37pm
I'm just going to saw, Elleon yesterday you yelled at us for not holding a tram for ever single person, even though that tram was a good 90% full anyways. Not to mention there were zombies that were coming. You do a good job keeping things in order, but sometimes you might do too good of a job.

You are damn right I did.

Zombies were comming, as they always are, but they weren't anywhere close enough to put you in danger. If it was held for just another 5 seconds, every player could have walked into that tram no problem, and 2 players wouldn't have died for nothing. Instead, the person who was 20 feet in the lead said "Zombies are comming, I am just going to take the tram, so run quick guys", or something along those lines right?

By the way, as I recall, you only got so close to the zombie because some fool accidentally glitched the tram correct? HealthySoup right?

Dracula. I warned them to hold, pay attention, use their eyes and radar and just work as a team. There was no need for those others to die, but they did anyways. I warned them to pay attention next time, that is all. I never threatened to freeze or ban them, nor did I punish the accidental glitcher or the guy who pressed the butoon.

Try to come up with a descent example instead of bringing up circumstances that shouts common sense to everyone. This is the exact reason as to why I ask people to refrain from doing so.

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Grayfox. Have you ever known me to punish someone for this kind of example, aside from maybe issuing a warning as I did to you guys last night?

I honestly don't think it was that big of a deal to say something, considering there are more than enough aside from admins who do so. Was it really that abnormal?

2 Dwarves, 1 Coat
28 Jul 2009, 02:04pm
I would prefer you to tell me what your opinion is on it, then just agreeing with me unless you truly feel that what is going on here is right by the said person being punished for doing what they did. lol

No, I just didn't realize there was a problem until you brought up that scenario.

Z3r0 M4ni4c
28 Jul 2009, 02:41pm
well it depends on the situation.
As the example rocks you can verbal warn.

As the example drox gave its pretty sure someone glitched but missed the person if an admin see's that yes he can punish but the rock example isnt just to punish you can warn that person.

Its 2 different scenario's but it always depend on the situation how things go and how there must be acted.

See it as driving a car.
Every situation is different and in every situation you have to act different.
Same deal is going on here.

Elleon
28 Jul 2009, 03:08pm
Again, guys, I have already supplied the circumstances and examples. Head to the link, find as many as you want.

Yes, this freeze punishment should only be used under certain circumstances, under certain guidelines and specifics, and those are the boundaries it has been used in. For crying out loud, I think we all know this, and apparently, most who disagree have re-evaluated their positions and responses.

People pretend or respond as though this is merely a black and white issue, but I don't believe or think it has ever been that way; there is a gray area in between.

Some say it is nothing but a black and white issue, and I want to know if this is the final judgement, for now atleast?

Bob Loblaw
28 Jul 2009, 04:37pm
Under the conditions where they try to glitch you out of the chopper but fail, I think a freeze is fine, but not for shooting the rocks. As I go under rocks I shoot, not to teamkill those behind me, just to weaken it enough so when my teammates are through it only takes one shot to drop em. Shooting rocks doesn't always have the intentions of teamkilling so to be punished for not even trying to teamkill sounds stupid to me.

SpikedRocker
28 Jul 2009, 04:43pm
When admining a server becomes to complex that it takes forever to explain stuff it tells me you are doing too much. I'm all about rules and following them. In admining, theres a degree of finesse to use. You don't want to be the "stick up the butt" admin, nor do you want to just be a normal player with [SG] in front of your name. You do not want to stress yourself out worrying who is doin what, taking away from your gaming experience. Some rules you should follow to the letter, others you need to use a bit more patience. What makes a good admin, is one who is inteligent enough to know when to act. And the variables I stated prior will help guide you to strive for it.

Now that being said, when it comes to escape...If I see people shooting at things that fall down on teammates I will hop on the mic and say something. At times in doing this, they actually succeceded and I was the one under the debris. Now, do I have ever right to ban them? Sure. But instead of freaking out about it I laugh about it. Probably the one rule you must think of above all others is, THIS IS JUST A COMPUTER GAME. When it becomes a constant problem where its round after round that the same person or people are doing it, than I shall act in our already predefined rules of admin (Slay, Kick, Ban). Rarely do I have to do anything because usually when it comes up they understand that they shouldn't do that anymore. Sure you'll run into some griefing asshole from time to time and you'll do what you have to then, but 90% of the players are just having fun.

My key advice to all admins, if you have to worry about what other jerk off is constantly doing in a server then you might be doing a bit too hard on it. We are all here to enjoy the game, not be police officers. Admins should be reserved for when it becomes a cronic and server wide problem. Shooting rocks and taking trams early should be the least of the admins worries.

Elleon
28 Jul 2009, 06:00pm
That's good enough for me.

To clear everyone's mind, not suggesting that I just got permission to go on a rampage.

First thing first. Gotta find the stick.

Harbor
28 Jul 2009, 07:20pm
This forum has too much wall text.

someone make me a summary

Dante
28 Jul 2009, 07:33pm
This forum has too much wall text.

someone make me a summary

I agree, i read all spiked said, but Elleon, you should write less :toung:

Shadowex3
29 Jul 2009, 01:44am
You guys can, as far as I know: Mute, ban, blind, drug, kick, ban, teleport, and set people on fire.

Kicks and bans for fiddly TK situations are like trying to use a butcher knife instead of a scalpel. Generally the best punishments for misbehavior are the ones which aggravate people the most. They either ragequit and post a complaint, go full retard and get banned, or neeever do it again when they think an admin is watching.

In my experience freezing people and forcing them to watch everyone play, or setting them on fire for a whole round, are some of the best ways to do that.

broncoty
29 Jul 2009, 01:51pm
You are starting to annoy me.

Use your public school critical thinking skills and get on with the game.

Shadowex3
29 Jul 2009, 09:12pm
Yeah now can we get a name for who you're trolling hard or do we need to all pretend it's us and get all defensive before you clarify it?

broncoty
29 Jul 2009, 11:25pm
Yeah now can we get a name for who you're trolling hard or do we need to all pretend it's us and get all defensive before you clarify it?

A quote would be nice so we could see who the troll is.

GrayFox
30 Jul 2009, 07:33am
A quote would be nice so we could see who the troll is.

I think hes talking about you.

And everyone needs to stop getting so serious about taking vehicles early on. Its really getting annoying when, if you don't wait for every last person and risk being killed by zombies, you are frozen. I ran onto the truck in Jurassic Park (the one that just starts automatically) and because I didn't wait for everyone I was frozen, when there were clearly zombies coming.

Heres a hint, if you're sitting in spectator with admin powers looking for trouble, chances are you're going to find it, whether it trouble or something that shouldn't even be looked at twice. Just play the game, and if you see someone team-killing(i.e. shooting out rocks that actually DO kill someone) then you should take action.