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oldskool
7 May 2009, 12:28pm
Treasury prices remained lower Thursday, pushing long-term yields to their highest levels in more than five months, as the Treasury Department had to pay more than anticipated to sell $14 billion in 30-year bonds, the last major auction of the week.
Ten-year note yields (UST10Y:U.S. Treasury 10 Year
which move inversely to prices, rose 10 basis points to stand lately at 3.29%.

I not a gloom and doom person, but this is a pin hole in an expanding US Treasury Bubble and its on the way to an HISTORIC Correction that will decide US global political power for generations.

This is one of 3 auctions presented by the US Treasury this week, Rates moving upwards while stocks sink????? doesn't happen, when stocks sink its a race to US bonds and bills for safety, not TODAY......Has the US Treasury , the Fed and The US Gov't taken on too much debt , they can't finiance it without hyper-inflation. has the safety and security of US Treasuries been damged beyond repair? and is this the hammer blow to our economy? How will this effect our world standing ( we the USA are the largest debtor on the planet ) ?

PotshotPolka
7 May 2009, 07:52pm
Basically the government will end up defaulting, and there goes the fucking ball game.

Why do you think the government wants stronger regulatory controls over banks? They'll need their support within the next few years if they want to try to offset the debt, which seems to be less of a concern than keeping track of their current deficit.

What you're seeing is just an other action of open market operations, I.E. monetary policy.

Drox
8 May 2009, 03:02pm
Well I knew this stuff wouldnt be fix even with Obama promising to fix it (Which he is making worse). Honestly the only way out is what Jefferson Davis did back in the day, completely restart the US system and make 0 debt, then start on getting rid of the federal banking system which screws the American people. Then go from there, pumping more money into the system wont fix anything, it will just make the value of the dollar keep going down to the point where it like post-war Germany after WW1 where 1,000 dollars buys one loft of bread. Our government needs to get their heads out of their asses and start getting stuff done or we all are gonna take a bite out of the shit sandwich called depression here soon.

RedOctober
8 May 2009, 03:22pm
Well I knew this stuff wouldnt be fix even with Obama promising to fix it (Which he is making worse). Honestly the only way out is what Jefferson Davis did back in the day, completely restart the US system and make 0 debt, then start on getting rid of the federal banking system which screws the American people. Then go from there, pumping more money into the system wont fix anything, it will just make the value of the dollar keep going down to the point where it like post-war Germany after WW1 where 1,000 dollars buys one loft of bread. Our government needs to get their heads out of their asses and start getting stuff done or we all are gonna take a bite out of the shit sandwich called depression here soon.

Restarting the us banking system and making the debt $0 is impossible. What do you want America to do.... declare bankruptcy. Sure lets do that and let countries like China to completely own our asses for the next 200 years. (Even though they basically own us now...)

The economy can not handle a drastic change like removing the FED. That kind of shock to the economy would crush us under our own financial insecurity. Take the former Soviet Union for example. They tried to completely change their economy rapidly and they plunged into becoming a shit poor nation. (granted there were other factors at work but for the sake of this example i wont deal with them)

I will admit that I don't know what course of action we should take to "fix" the economy, but i do know that failed monetary policy and and rapid change to the structure of the economy will only make things worse.

Drox
8 May 2009, 03:27pm
Restarting the us banking system and making the debt $0 is impossible. What do you want America to do.... declare bankruptcy. Sure lets do that and let countries like China to completely own our asses for the next 200 years. (Even though they basically own us now...)

The economy can not handle a drastic change like removing the FED. That kind of shock to the economy would crush us under our own financial insecurity. Take the former Soviet Union for example. They tried to completely change their economy rapidly and they plunged into becoming a shit poor nation. (granted there were other factors at work but for the sake of this example i wont deal with them)

I will admit that I don't know what course of action we should take to "fix" the economy, but i do know that failed monetary policy and and rapid change to the structure of the economy will only make things worse.

Countries like China already own our ass, since a portion of our debt is to them. By your logic we are a sinking ship and you want to go down with it where there is a option to jump on a life raft but why take it if we are gonna lose the ship? lol Its gonna happen one way or another, it would be better if we planned it and controlled the way we rebuild afterwards, then to just let it happen and try to figure it out while in so many years of depression.

PotshotPolka
8 May 2009, 03:32pm
Countries like China already own our ass, since a portion of our debt is to them. By your logic we are a sinking ship and you want to go down with it where there is a option to jump on a life raft but why take it if we are gonna lose the ship? lol Its gonna happen one way or another, it would be better if we planned it and controlled the way we rebuild afterwards, then to just let it happen and try to figure it out while in so many years of depression.

They call it the "New Deal"

As for our debt, the Chinese would be shooting themselves in the foot if they ever tried to bring down the U.S. through either canceling loans, or denying production, since we are customer No.1. If you haven't noticed the Chinese economy isn't quite up to snuff right now either.

Drox
8 May 2009, 03:35pm
They call it the "New Deal"

As for our debt, the Chinese would be shooting themselves in the foot if they ever tried to bring down the U.S. through either canceling loans, or denying production, since we are customer No.1. If you haven't noticed the Chinese economy isn't quite up to snuff right now either.

Yea but my "New Deal" isnt the same as the one they intend on doing. ;) Since I would like to see complete removal of the federal banking system.

Italian Jew
8 May 2009, 05:42pm
Honestly the only way out is what Jefferson Davis did back in the day

And what exactly was that?

Drox
8 May 2009, 06:16pm
And what exactly was that?

Read next to that sentence maybe? or is that hard? :O

Italian Jew
8 May 2009, 06:27pm
Yeah, I fail to see what Jefferson Davis did exactly. I was looking for some details on a link you could possibly provide, but seeing as you are unable to do so, my question will remain unanswered. I am finding stuff on Google, but just on the presidency of the confederacy and nothing much else.

Drox
8 May 2009, 06:30pm
Yeah, I fail to see what Jefferson Davis did exactly. I was looking for some details on a link you could possibly provide, but seeing as you are unable to do so, my question will remain unanswered. I am finding stuff on Google, but just on the presidency of the confederacy and nothing much else.

Maybe I meant Thomas Jefferson I usually get the two confused, but my point was made in my post on what I think should happen.

Italian Jew
8 May 2009, 07:00pm
Maybe I meant Thomas Jefferson I usually get the two confused, but my point was made in my post on what I think should happen.

Confusing Thomas Jefferson and Jefferson Davis is a pretty weird thing to do btw. :P

What Thomas Jefferson did "back in the day" was rely too heavily on customs that managed to screw the US over when Europe went to war with Napoleon. We depend almost entirely on foreign means now, so I don't see how emulating his idea would help us out when it would would just prove even more devastating.

Doing what people did "back in the day" is not a smart move to do off the cuff because even if something did work in the past, the situations have changed tremendously and you cannot generalize what one practice would do under all current or possible circumstances (especially if they failed).

We rely too much on it at this point, so if you want to remove it, it would be wiser to do it in a gradual manner, not in one swift action that would cripple our government.

Drox
8 May 2009, 09:11pm
Confusing Thomas Jefferson and Jefferson Davis is a pretty weird thing to do btw. :P

What Thomas Jefferson did "back in the day" was rely too heavily on customs that managed to screw the US over when Europe went to war with Napoleon. We depend almost entirely on foreign means now, so I don't see how emulating his idea would help us out when it would would just prove even more devastating.

Doing what people did "back in the day" is not a smart move to do off the cuff because even if something did work in the past, the situations have changed tremendously and you cannot generalize what one practice would do under all current or possible circumstances (especially if they failed).

We rely too much on it at this point, so if you want to remove it, it would be wiser to do it in a gradual manner, not in one swift action that would cripple our government.

I see your point, but like I said I only would like to see one item from the past put into place. As far as the rest goes it doesnt matter what we look to either being past or present for ideas. If our government doesnt get on the ball instead of throwing more money at the problem, then really it doesnt matter because it will be too late to save it.

PotshotPolka
8 May 2009, 09:34pm
Wtf is with the double posts?

PotshotPolka
8 May 2009, 09:35pm
I see your point, but like I said I only would like to see one item from the past put into place. As far as the rest goes it doesnt matter what we look to either being past or present for ideas. If our government doesnt get on the ball instead of throwing more money at the problem, then really it doesnt matter because it will be too late to save it.

I could argue it was too late around October last year, but speculation is useless when it comes to economics, you'll get your answer probably in about 10-15 years.

:-]
9 May 2009, 09:31am
Do you feel that if the government turned to the US public purchasing bonds could resort in assisting the government and helping our deficit? Kind of like War Bonds but the money collected wouldn't be going towards weapons and so forth, but towards paying off our debt?

PotshotPolka
9 May 2009, 09:37am
;199163']Do you feel that if the government turned to the US public purchasing bonds could resort in assisting the government and helping our deficit? Kind of like War Bonds but the money collected wouldn't be going towards weapons and so forth, but towards paying off our debt?

It's essentially what they did after WWII, but the comparison is palpable. They already have such bonds, and they are the majority of the debt holders currently, but it would take a disastrous amount of taxation to reel in this debt, and would not be achievable under the government's current spending habits.

:-]
9 May 2009, 09:48am
Sorry but another question since you seem the most knowledgeable about this Potshot. Do you feel under Obama's administration, 4 years or if even given another term in office, he is truly going to help in lowering the deficit or just adding to it and what do you feel could be done?

LegalSmash
9 May 2009, 10:54am
;199178']Sorry but another question since you seem the most knowledgeable about this Potshot. Do you feel under Obama's administration, 4 years or if even given another term in office, he is truly going to help in lowering the deficit or just adding to it and what do you feel could be done?

I think that considering the current spending habits, the likelihood of its success to right downturn, and the considerable overspending the government is doing to prop up private entities that under all guises of capitalism should be allowed to fall, I doubt any amount of bonds would really help the situation.

Also consider that during WWII, rationing of consumer goods, especially luxuries (if you have a grandma old enough to remember that era, ask her if she ever bought silk in that period, or for how long she kept her stalkings.), left people with more disposable income to allow for purchasing of bonds. We aren't asking people to "buy bonds to support the war, so it will end", here essentially the people are being asked to "buy bonds to unfuck the economy by unfucking private companies that should have made better business decisions", or "buy bonds to pay for the megadeficit resulting from half cocked spending sprees of the past two administrations, and to pay for the inflated wages of civil servants who have property interests in jobs that were allegedly created on a temporary basis".

I'm sorry, but even if I had Warren Buffet money, I would not contribute, because its a terrible cause brought on by overmaterialism in the people and credit entities making RETARDED decisions (chalking up the housing crises and credit crunch), overzealous half assed spending by the government (see bailout package part UH and DUH), and continued involvement of lobbyists for some of the most financially draining, damaging, and artificially demanded industries in the world (health insurance, house insurance, any insurance, for profit educational loans, US car manufacturies (which make most of their shit in mexico and canada btw), and construction companies that purposefully delay projects and cost taxpayers billions.

To quote "drinkingwithbob", the problem is not the taxes, its the pricks that spend the money and the manner in which they spend it.

I think a bond drive would be horribly unsuccessful, and damage the cause to fix the economy more than anything else.

PotshotPolka
9 May 2009, 05:09pm
I think that considering the current spending habits, the likelihood of its success to right downturn, and the considerable overspending the government is doing to prop up private entities that under all guises of capitalism should be allowed to fall, I doubt any amount of bonds would really help the situation.

Also consider that during WWII, rationing of consumer goods, especially luxuries (if you have a grandma old enough to remember that era, ask her if she ever bought silk in that period, or for how long she kept her stalkings.), left people with more disposable income to allow for purchasing of bonds. We aren't asking people to "buy bonds to support the war, so it will end", here essentially the people are being asked to "buy bonds to unfuck the economy by unfucking private companies that should have made better business decisions", or "buy bonds to pay for the megadeficit resulting from half cocked spending sprees of the past two administrations, and to pay for the inflated wages of civil servants who have property interests in jobs that were allegedly created on a temporary basis".

I'm sorry, but even if I had Warren Buffet money, I would not contribute, because its a terrible cause brought on by overmaterialism in the people and credit entities making RETARDED decisions (chalking up the housing crises and credit crunch), overzealous half assed spending by the government (see bailout package part UH and DUH), and continued involvement of lobbyists for some of the most financially draining, damaging, and artificially demanded industries in the world (health insurance, house insurance, any insurance, for profit educational loans, US car manufacturies (which make most of their shit in mexico and canada btw), and construction companies that purposefully delay projects and cost taxpayers billions.

To quote "drinkingwithbob", the problem is not the taxes, its the pricks that spend the money and the manner in which they spend it.

I think a bond drive would be horribly unsuccessful, and damage the cause to fix the economy more than anything else.

Pretty much sums it up.

oldskool
9 May 2009, 05:20pm
;199178']Sorry but another question since you seem the most knowledgeable about this Potshot. Do you feel under Obama's administration, 4 years or if even given another term in office, he is truly going to help in lowering the deficit or just adding to it and what do you feel could be done?
The US public is maxed out in Debt , what are theyi going to use to pay for the bonds???? The Fed has got the printers humming at full steam...we are monitizing the debt, Printing $ to pay for our bills today.....Kinda like eating ur own organs...we are in big trouble

RedOctober
9 May 2009, 05:20pm
Countries like China already own our ass, since a portion of our debt is to them. By your logic we are a sinking ship and you want to go down with it where there is a option to jump on a life raft but why take it if we are gonna lose the ship? lol Its gonna happen one way or another, it would be better if we planned it and controlled the way we rebuild afterwords, then to just let it happen and try to figure it out while in so many years of depression.


I'm not denying its going down. I know its going to happen its just a matter of time. The problem with planing all that is that the same idiot politicians that don't know the difference between failed Kansian economics and the Neo-Classical theory are the ones who are going to try to rebuild our economy? Thata a freaking great idea! Let the idiots who messed everything up try to fix it.

We are going down, let the economy takes its own natural course and it may take a while (hopefully less than a decade from computer generated models ive seen. lost the link but i will try to put it up when i find it)but everything will straighten out eventually.

oldskool
9 May 2009, 05:20pm
;199178']Sorry but another question since you seem the most knowledgeable about this Potshot. Do you feel under Obama's administration, 4 years or if even given another term in office, he is truly going to help in lowering the deficit or just adding to it and what do you feel could be done?
The US public is maxed out in Debt , what are theyi going to use to pay for the bonds???? The Fed has got the printers humming at full steam...we are monitizing the debt, Printing $ to pay for our bills today.....Kinda like eating ur own organs...we are in big trouble

oldskool
9 May 2009, 05:25pm
It's essentially what they did after WWII, but the comparison is palpable. They already have such bonds, and they are the majority of the debt holders currently, but it would take a disastrous amount of taxation to reel in this debt, and would not be achievable under the government's current spending habits.
Ok I figured this forum out, sorry if i replied to the wrong post.....

The public has high debt too, what $ are they going to use to buy 12 trillion dollars of debt??? what good are bonds from a defualted gov't ???...wallpaper or toliet paper that all...the FED is monitizing the debt......The Fed is printing $ to pay the Gov't bills , expanding its balance sheet by buying US bonds and Bills ...its like eating ur own organs...makes me wanna puke

Drox
10 May 2009, 05:46am
I'm not denying its going down. I know its going to happen its just a matter of time. The problem with planing all that is that the same idiot politicians that don't know the difference between failed Kansian economics and the Neo-Classical theory are the ones who are going to try to rebuild our economy? Thata a freaking great idea! Let the idiots who messed everything up try to fix it.

Like it or not thats who is gonna do it anyway lol