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View Full Version : Bailout-nomics Round Table discussion



LegalSmash
23 Mar 2009, 03:44pm
Glory be to red, and the awesome, cleansed politics arena.

Lets get down to business, bring your shovels, get the nose clips on and lets stir through some legislative shit... below please find a copy of the recovery act....



http://www.forbes.com/2008/10/01/senate-vote-bailout-biz-beltway-cx_bw_1001senate2.html (bailout plan (TARP))

http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/RecoveryBill01-15-09.pdf (Economic stimulus act)

Okay, lets really get on this issue:

What pros, cons do you see regarding the current "stimulus plan", what are the dangers you see regarding future losses of power, economic stability, and inflation issues?

Red
23 Mar 2009, 03:47pm
Off the top of my head, my major concern is the devaluation of the dollar/inflation which in the immediate future will lead to higher oil prices for us.

Actually, it already is causing oil prices to go up because of the weakening dollar.

The more we "stimulate" the economy through keynsian spending and printing of money, the more it will cost us through other means not as obvious to the lay person.

Oil prices being the first one we'll be hit by, and are already getting hit by, followed by any other product that we import, we'll have to pay through the nose with the pathetic US dollar.

Frostbyte
23 Mar 2009, 03:49pm
Not being able to pay it back, which from what I understand we cant do anyway.

Red
23 Mar 2009, 03:58pm
We'll just pay it back with more loans from our loan shark, I mean China.

Paying off debt with debt, it's the American way.

Frostbyte
23 Mar 2009, 04:01pm
Fuck that, we can use Jigglebell's paypal account.

Dracula
23 Mar 2009, 04:07pm
To be quite honest about the whole Stimulus and "recession" where i live we really arnt feeling it. Most of my town is hard Left or hard Right. All the restraunts are still busy no major things have gone out of buisness and a couple new buisnesses have sprung up.


No for the stimulus and TARP....
Im hoping it dosent take another "infusion of money to help the economy" for the general public to notice and say "FUCK NO LET THEM FAIL". Also the growing debt is worrysome but I have a feeling it wont REALLY hurt us too bad. Finally the only plus I can see is that after this administrations time is up the nation will hopefully stay away from people like Obama for a while.

Red
23 Mar 2009, 04:10pm
People at my company have been let go, but overall I still see people going out to eat, people buying new Acuras etc etc. The only thing I don't see people buying as much of are houses, but then again, housing prices are so overvalued, even to this day.

Sure, we've had some layoffs, but that's more a result of the stock dropping, and I don't see how these "stimulus" bills will get them their jobs back, or help students pay for student loans, or create jobs that will employ EDUCATED persons that finished college.

imkrazie
23 Mar 2009, 04:40pm
On the topic of feeling the recession, my county has been hit fairly hard in terms of our budget. My city's school system is a million dollars short for next year's budget, my city's construction projects are being stalled due to budget constraints, commercial construction for utility companies is doing alright but residential has been hit hard (but it's been like that for a year or two.)

On the bailout...I see it causing pretty substantial inflation along with an increasing national debt (this bailout causing 9 trillion dollars+) and with the weaken dollar it should be interesting to see what the United States to keep afloat...some of the more extreme stuff I've heard is pretty scary.

LegalSmash
23 Mar 2009, 04:41pm
People at my company have been let go, but overall I still see people going out to eat, people buying new Acuras etc etc. The only thing I don't see people buying as much of are houses, but then again, housing prices are so overvalued, even to this day.

Sure, we've had some layoffs, but that's more a result of the stock dropping, and I don't see how these "stimulus" bills will get them their jobs back, or help students pay for student loans, or create jobs that will employ EDUCATED persons that finished college.


Basically, people want to lose their debt that they amassed being stupid, I hear no mention of my or any other student's loans being forgiven for federal work, or good behavior like thrift, savings, or education spending being rewarded, rather its just a big sign of "GO SPEND MOAR NAO", or "spend baby spend, except instead of a hot milf saying it, its a skinny black guy and his retard speaker of the house.

PS since when the fuck did the speaker of the house get her own logo? What is this "office of the speaker of the house" shit.

Why don't I just call myself "Office of the post graduate law student"

PotshotPolka
23 Mar 2009, 04:55pm
I would say the biggest issue will come when the overwhelming amount of debt, and unwillingness of Americans and investors abroad to purchase their treasury notes reaches the point where the government reaches of the point of not being able to fund its programs, or pay the interest of the debt.

In short, were near the point of no return, where the debt will soon overtake the GDP.

LegalSmash
23 Mar 2009, 04:56pm
I would say the biggest issue will come when the overwhelming amount of debt, and unwillingness of Americans and investors abroad to purchase their treasury notes reaches the point where the government reaches of the point of not being able to fund its programs, or pay the interest of the debt.

In short, were near the point of no return, where the debt will soon overtake the GDP.

Then we can be like cuba.

Dante
23 Mar 2009, 10:09pm
See with this stimulus it's supposed to help big companies keep their employees and help small business thrive and that is why your seeing a lot of smaller companies popping up. From what we've seen from this stimulus larger companies like AIG and others have been dramatically hit, But this stimulus isn't helping really at all. From what I've seen it was directed toward smaller companies. Which can be a really good thing.

Red
23 Mar 2009, 10:25pm
Do you have statistics on the "seeing a lot of smaller companies popping up"?

From what I hear, banks are still being tight with credit, so I don't know how people are getting money to start up these companies.

LegalSmash
23 Mar 2009, 10:38pm
See with this stimulus it's supposed to help big companies keep their employees and help small business thrive and that is why your seeing a lot of smaller companies popping up. From what we've seen from this stimulus larger companies like AIG and others have been dramatically hit, But this stimulus isn't helping really at all. From what I've seen it was directed toward smaller companies. Which can be a really good thing.

Banks are not only requiring MORE credit, but larger down payments, and additional required assurances that have not been seen since the early 80s, we are in for a serious economic buttfucking under the current bill.

If the concept is supposed to be to allow economic recovery, the banks have to lend, and do so responsibly, right now, the banks are essentially saying "its my ball, I make the rules, or I go home" and while that is perfectly okay, I don't think that we should pretend that the majority of a trillion dollars on wanton programs is going to make the banks put out... its like trying to get laid by a prude girl by buying her a shitload of taco bell... the two things don't even correlate.

As for smaller companies... as of now, NO money has been directed at them... I find it fairly entertaining that the mantra is "helping out mainstreet", but aside from making a project where 290 daylaborers will repave mainstreet, I don't see mainstreet getting Jack or Shit, and jack left town, what HAS happened is a LOT of money is going into a LOT of pet projects, which while it may assist some state function, is not going to change or in some way alleviate the fundamental problems we are facing as a country:

1. Banks are not lending money because they are scared shitless of bad debt.
2. Our kids are fucking morons, and the public education system is failing them.
3. Government bureaucracy causes serious mixups in legislative mandate, resulting in clusterfucks like the current housing situation... rememeber, Fanny and Freddy didn't go apeshit on their pwn, it required some retard in congress to do something unusually depraved.
4. Our citizenry is largely apathetic to politics, and are more interested in whether a candidate without ovaries and a uterus agrees with a court decision, which could easily and quickly be overturned by congressionally passed law, or whether the schools are telling their kids that jesus rode dinosaurs as opposed to dinosaurs came before humans.
5. Tied to number 4, our average countrymen knows more about tabloid news and celebrity gossip than relevant, fiercely important subject such as their tax liability, the value of their home, their neighborhood townhall meetign date... I find it impossibly disturbing that people will bitch about a titty bar and a footlocker appearing in their local commercially zoned area, but are not willing to get off their fat ass to make a statement as a taxpaying resident of said zone.

Like it or not, the bailout isn't really bailing out the economy, or businesses, its congress welfaring most of the country's stupid persons, who should not be rewarded for acting irresponsibly. THAT is my issue with any recovery act.

Not one fucking statement has been made by those child molesting congressmen about student loan forgiveness, work credit/experience building programs, tax savings for useful education (math and science, not fucking interpretive dance). Instead, we get to hear about taxpayer money going to pay for people's mortgages which blew up because they purchased a 10,000 sq foot house on a 24 Thousand a year salary with a "no doc" balloon rate mortgage.

These people need to be flailed, not bailed out.

iClown
25 Mar 2009, 10:16pm
The bailout is so stupid.

Business is very risky, especially the Stock Market. It is basically like gambling, except that money goes to other people/services instead of the casino, and you will probably lose even more money from business then gambling.

Lets say I am a stock broker (Though this applies to executives in the Auto Industry and the rest). One day, I decide to invest in "Bank With Money Inside". Unfortunately, "Bank With Money Inside" is badly managed and near-worthless, and soon goes bankrupt. I then proceed to invest in worthless products and the Dot-Com bubble (like attempting to "buy shares" of some guy's blog). After this, I lose all my money. The government should NOT pay people for making bad business decisions. That would be like giving a compulsive gambler 12 million dollars because he has bad luck.

PotshotPolka
27 Mar 2009, 06:16am
Not quite. Firms are more productive when they have the ability to borrow money, which is usually composed of savings from consumers. You CANNOT stimulate both at the same time (Aggregate Demand and Short Run Aggregate Supply) without severe consequences. The latest hiccup in the economy isn't a OMFGZ RECESSION NEAR THE BRINKZ OF DEPRESSION! It's simply part of the business cycle, which will inevitably work back towards equilibrium (or in jargon, the Long Run Aggregate Supply, or PPF).
It's been happening since the beginning of time, and contrary to popular belief, protectionist policy by the government was behind the Great Depression and the Market Crash (really just a big dip in the business cycle).


Then this guy named Keynes said: "We're all dead in the long-run" and everything went to hell.

RedOctober
9 Apr 2009, 08:37pm
Not quite. Firms are more productive when they have the ability to borrow money, which is usually composed of savings from consumers. You CANNOT stimulate both at the same time (Aggregate Demand and Short Run Aggregate Supply) without severe consequences. The latest hiccup in the economy isn't a OMFGZ RECESSION NEAR THE BRINKZ OF DEPRESSION! It's simply part of the business cycle, which will inevitably work back towards equilibrium (or in jargon, the Long Run Aggregate Supply, or PPF).
It's been happening since the beginning of time, and contrary to popular belief, protectionist policy by the government was behind the Great Depression and the Market Crash (really just a big dip in the business cycle).


Then this guy named Keynes said: "We're all dead in the long-run" and everything went to hell.


good old Mr. Smith and his red pill!

Potshot is right though. if u don't believe that the market is in a constant state of flux and it always attempting to reach its maximum efficiency trend (PPF) then check this cute little graph out!

http://www.culturaleconomics.atfreeweb.com/111%20114%20MBB%20Macro%20Graphics/Macro/Fig%206.1%20Business%20Cycle.jpg

in the end if Obama doesn't F**K everything up by trying to mess with things that are not broken then we will return to normal.

PotshotPolka
10 Apr 2009, 10:42am
Lies, we must CHANGE.

phatman76
20 Apr 2009, 01:53am
The biggest problem from the stimulus is the fact that it will be used to nationalize private companies, or at least put them on the dole. Nationalization is the first step to destroying innovation and competition, you create government-sanctioned oligopolies and monopolies that have no desire to serve the consumer. We are merely following in the footsteps of Europe twenty years ago however, so we can just look across the pond and see how fucked it made them. Pretty soon 15% unemployment and a permanent slump will be the norm...