Mines of Moria, Rules needing to be enforced

[Lux]

I know that we shouldn't have to enforce things like stopping glitches in maps as they should be removed, but seeing as Mines of Moria is HUGELY popular, I think that we need to just enforce these rules until a fixed version comes out.

1. Closing door early. Pretty obvious, not a glitch. If a CT closes the door on his team mates he should be punished.
2. Teleport rock. Don't know if this is intentional or not, but I think that it ruins the game balance, especially if zombies use it.
3. Glitching zombie pushback. This is when zombies hide infront of the pillar near the protection ring, and this gives them an unfair advantage as they are not pushed back. Its lead to the quick ending of rounds.
4. Glitching from top of bridge. This is when zombies build up speed by jumping off of the final bridge and land at the end bit (where humans have to wait for door to open) and kill all the cts. This is DEFINITELY wrong.

[Caution]

I haven't played the map that much, but I've heard of a lot of glitching. I don't really know what to look for, can you be a little more specific on what they do to glitch? Like exactly where they have to go or jump onto something?

[Lux]

1. Balin's door. Although cts recently are just blocking the door at 90% close until zombies come, which kind of solves the problem.
2. You can avoid the block on zombies, but cts can use it too. Both ways its unfair. Its in the middle of the right and left stairs, one of the rocks.
3. The pillar to the left side just before the protection ring. Hiding so that you are on the protection ring side means that the "push back" on zombies will not affect you, so you get a massive advantage at reaching the cts.
4. At the end, from the top of the last area (the room before the ring dropping room) zombies jump off the top and sometimes they end up landing on the bit which cts try and stop zombies jumping onto.

[Caution]

Ok I'll watch for this. Thanks

[Paul]

I posted this on the fpsb map release.


Awsome map, but our server is having a few problems with some glitches/ bugs in the map.

- The teleport rock near the elevator is kinda lame and its unbalances the game.

- Theres still a few glitches with the zombie pushback near the ring.

- In the room with the falling bridge that you have to hold off, the zombies can jump before they get teleported and then go flying onto the end part and stab the humans. This totatly ruins the ending. Add a longer playerclip or just change the direction it pushes you.

Apart from that awsome map!

Hopefully get a reply soon/ fix.

[Cranks]

I posted this on the fpsb map release.



Hopefully get a reply soon/ fix.

Paul are these not problem that you able to fix?

Or can you not decompile.

[ReneGade]

1. Closing door early. Pretty obvious, not a glitch. If a CT closes the door on his team mates he should be punished.
This can easily be thrown in the same boat as launching vehicles early on other maps.

2. Teleport rock. Don't know if this is intentional or not, but I think that it ruins the game balance, especially if zombies use it.
This I agree with because it seems unintentional.

3. Glitching zombie pushback. This is when zombies hide infront of the pillar near the protection ring, and this gives them an unfair advantage as they are not pushed back. Its lead to the quick ending of rounds.
I disagree here because this is an obvious zombie strategy and is not as major an advantage as you make it seem, its only about 4 steps difference between the pillar and when you are unaffected by the pushback.

4. Glitching from top of bridge. This is when zombies build up speed by jumping off of the final bridge and land at the end bit (where humans have to wait for door to open) and kill all the cts. This is DEFINITELY wrong.
This was an unintended glitch that results from the creator wanting to make a possible had jump for zombies to jump from the top to the step right below the top. This can happen accidentally so I feel it should not be a ban punishment unless they make it very obvious they are trying to exploit the glitch.



And Cranks Paul could certainly fix at least most of these but its rude to make changes like tha to another persons map, which is why steam doesn't have a built in decompiler.

[Lux]

Renegade as little a difference as it is (its more than 4 steps) it is the different between zombies catching up before you get to the boxes and them not catching up. When I've let it slip that almost always happens, so I think it should be enforced.

[Doctordan]

iwould like to add this opening back up balins door after zombies have arrived

[broncoty]

I know that we shouldn't have to enforce things like stopping glitches in maps as they should be removed, but seeing as Mines of Moria is HUGELY popular, I think that we need to just enforce these rules until a fixed version comes out.

1. Closing door early. Pretty obvious, not a glitch. If a CT closes the door on his team mates he should be punished.

- No Team killing
- No Blocking
- Team work is required, hold all vehicles for teammates and do not block or prevent teammates from reaching safety.
2. Teleport rock. Don't know if this is intentional or not, but I think that it ruins the game balance, especially if zombies use it.

Part of the map, no enforcement should be made
3. Glitching zombie pushback. This is when zombies hide infront of the pillar near the protection ring, and this gives them an unfair advantage as they are not pushed back. Its lead to the quick ending of rounds.

- No Glitching

4. Glitching from top of bridge. This is when zombies build up speed by jumping off of the final bridge and land at the end bit (where humans have to wait for door to open) and kill all the cts. This is DEFINITELY wrong.

- No Glitching

Server Rules:

- Respect admins and other players or get banned!!!!!
- No Team killing
- No Blocking
- No spamming of any kind (voice or chat)
- No racism of any kind will be tolerated (including racist names/sprays)
- Do not disconnect/reconnect to avoid kills, you will be banned
- No advertising other servers or clans
- Admins can deem any spray they think unfit bannable from the server
- No Glitching
- Team work is required, hold all vehicles for teammates and do not block or prevent teammates from reaching safety.


Most of your ideas are already covered under the server rules. But the teleport rock in my opinion is not and should either

A: have a separate rule created addressing it

B: Edited out of the map

C: Not enforced

[Gumpy]

I like the teleport rock, because it's too hard and gay to climb the ladders. But if everyone finds out about it then it has to go.

[Svendy]

Server Rules:

- Respect admins and other players or get banned!!!!!
- No Team killing
- No Blocking
- No spamming of any kind (voice or chat)
- No racism of any kind will be tolerated (including racist names/sprays)
- Do not disconnect/reconnect to avoid kills, you will be banned
- No advertising other servers or clans
- Admins can deem any spray they think unfit bannable from the server
- No Glitching
- Team work is required, hold all vehicles for teammates and do not block or prevent teammates from reaching safety.


Most of your ideas are already covered under the server rules. But the teleport rock in my opinion is not and should either

A: have a separate rule created addressing it

B: Edited out of the map

C: Not enforced

couldnt have said it my better

[Lux]

Broncoty I obviously know that........but the argument is whether it is a glitch or not, not whether glitching and whatever is against the rules.

Several admins have different opinions on the zombies glitching the pushback. Its obvious that it is a mistake by the map maker, and zombies gain a bad advantage from it, yet admins are contradicting what I've been trying to enforce and it causes confusion.

With the teleport it allows zombies to avoid the blocks on the stairs which slow them down to allow cts time, and this means the round could pretty much be over before anyone gets to the Balin Doors.

[Toxin]

Paul are these not problem that you able to fix?

Or can you not decompile.

Either one or the other, but you can't edit maps without the creators permission in the first place.

[Jaffa]

I only try to enforce the rule stopping zombies using the teleport boost to get over to the humans. If someone is closing balins tomb delibaertly to screw their team, i'll punish, but its very hard to tell who is doing it

[Votefail.]

i think its a glitch with the tele rock theyre supposed to take the elevator... and if they tele up there and get out because the gate is open before the elevator starts moving and they get a headstart which is unfair

[*Queen VenomousFate*]

I know that we shouldn't have to enforce things like stopping glitches in maps as they should be removed, but seeing as Mines of Moria is HUGELY popular, I think that we need to just enforce these rules until a fixed version comes out.

1. Closing door early. Pretty obvious, not a glitch. If a CT closes the door on his team mates he should be punished.
2. Teleport rock. Don't know if this is intentional or not, but I think that it ruins the game balance, especially if zombies use it.
3. Glitching zombie pushback. This is when zombies hide infront of the pillar near the protection ring, and this gives them an unfair advantage as they are not pushed back. Its lead to the quick ending of rounds.
4. Glitching from top of bridge. This is when zombies build up speed by jumping off of the final bridge and land at the end bit (where humans have to wait for door to open) and kill all the cts. This is DEFINITELY wrong.

Number 2,3 and 4 are part of the map, and are therefore not punishable offenses.

2 - Regardless of whether or not it is a glitch, it is part of the map that is very accessable and therefore not a glitch.

3 - If there is nothing to prevent zombies from getting behind the pillars then it is not a glitch. It is only a glitch when they have to weasel there way trhough a small opening to get to a spot meant to be blocked off.

4 - If a zombie can juimp that far, good for them. If a human cannot shoot a flying zombie to their death, the human deserves to die.

As for 1, often times due to the lack of a clear line of sight very far out past the gate, a human may close the gate without knowing that more CTs are coming. Unless he intentionally closes it, it is just an unfortunate part of the map.

End of story - I WILL NOT create map specific rules. Every map shall have the same rules, it is up to the judgement of the admin to determine what is glitching.

[*Queen VenomousFate*]

A glitch is when a player knowingly abuses an unintentional fault in the map to gain an UNSURMOUNTABLE advantage above all other players and enemies.

The advantage gained from any of those so called "glitches" is quite small and generally a good shotgun blast can put them back into an even playing field with the other zombies.

Even if the advantage is very good, but NOT undefeatable, it should not be considered a glitch, because it is impossible to know whether or not the map maker intentionally put that there.

No map maker would ever put something intentionally in their map that makes a player undefeatable, and therefore, that is when we must ban.

[Jaffa]

venomous, the reason some admins have started to enforce a rule to stop players use the teleport to gain a speed boost to cross the chasm is thats its extremely hard for humans to shoot them, the speed boost is insane (not to mention small models that camoflague in). Usually zombies can do this to reach the far side BEFORE the humans can possibly cross, which makes it impossible to win.

[*Queen VenomousFate*]

venomous, the reason some admins have started to enforce a rule to stop players use the teleport to gain a speed boost to cross the chasm is thats its extremely hard for humans to shoot them, the speed boost is insane (not to mention small models that camoflague in). Usually zombies can do this to reach the far side BEFORE the humans can possibly cross, which makes it impossible to win.

If it is part of the map, then it shall not be enforced.

[Lux]

Number 2,3 and 4 are part of the map, and are therefore not punishable offenses.

2 - Regardless of whether or not it is a glitch, it is part of the map that is very accessable and therefore not a glitch.

Its not very accessable, you have to knowingly detour from the stairs and go ontop of some rock and fall into a precise spot. I do not know if it is there on purpose or a glitch, but there is an undefeatable advantage here. The zombies end up at the top of the stairs before the humans whenever they use this, and then the round IS over, after countless times of zombies doing this the cts will not survive, it basically ruins the round.



3 - If there is nothing to prevent zombies from getting behind the pillars then it is not a glitch. It is only a glitch when they have to weasel there way trhough a small opening to get to a spot meant to be blocked off.

The glitch isn't the accessability, its the outcome of being there. I see your point but this is not intentional by the map maker, its just a fault where the pushback (which pushes them to a certain area far back if they are ahead of it) fails in that small spot. This is a BIG difference, because humans all have to race to the end, if they don't run with their knives its likely that zombies will catch them before they get to the end, and even more (99%?) likely if they use this glitch spot. My usual way of stopping this is by freezing the zombies until they are in par with the other group of zombies.




4 - If a zombie can juimp that far, good for them. If a human cannot shoot a flying zombie to their death, the human deserves to die.

It is not good for them. I think you very much misunderstand what zombies have to do. This is DEFINITELY a glitch, as when you jump off the edge the map maker has purposely made it so that you cannot normally jump to the bottom, you have to go down the stairs. However if you jump right down to the ground very away and gain speed, when you get teleported back to the top of the stairs you go flying forward again off the top and can avoid the block the map maker has put in and get to bridge before/when the cts are there, which is very unfair.



As for 1, often times due to the lack of a clear line of sight very far out past the gate, a human may close the gate without knowing that more CTs are coming. Unless he intentionally closes it, it is just an unfortunate part of the map.

This rarely happens now, because cts will block the door from closing at 90% so that humans can squeeze through and then shut it quickly when zombies come.



End of story - I WILL NOT create map specific rules. Every map shall have the same rules, it is up to the judgement of the admin to determine what is glitching.

I've just said my judgement, and I just thought that to make Mines of Moria balanced and fair these are just good rules to have :). I don't see why you are so reluctant to make specific rules, I guess for every single map it would get confusing but considering how popular this map is.....

I guess you might be afraid of 100 ban appeals because of these things (although I will ban people who use 4, because its very calculated and 100% glitch.), but I usually use light punishment, like freezing...I've not had to issue a ban as of yet.

[Jaffa]

If it is part of the map, then it shall not be enforced.

I'm pretty sure its not supposed to be part of the map. Basically there is an invisible wall preventing zombies dropping down on humans below, but it doesn't strech all the way across. Normally zombies who jumped this gap would fall straight down to the bottom. What happens here is that the zombies take that speed boost from falling directly down, and then when they hit the teleporter, because of the way its angled, they can do a bhop and use the speed to cross the map.

I'm sure its not an intentional part of the map, and its a pretty map breaking exploit

[*Queen VenomousFate*]

Basically I think this is a good way to sum up this thread.

- Mines of Moria WILL NOT have a specific rule set. Players don't even read our general rules as they stand, and all putting map specific rules in our MOTD and forums would do is add confusion.

- If an Admin feels strongly that something on a map violates one of our general rules (No Glitching etc.), then by all means that admin can issue a general warning against doing the glitch. HOWEVER, the admin MAY NOT ban any player for the glitching without a PERSONALIZED warning/kick beforehand. The general warning is not sufficient as the required warning because players join and leave the server every few seconds, and some are bound to miss it.

- Glitching bans should be for no longer than 1 day, and most should be 1-6 hours. If you get a repeat offender, private message me and I will increase his ban.

- Everything I brought up in my first response were simply the reasons why I would not warn/ban for any of those "glitches", since I don't feel they are glitches. The reason I will not force anyone to allow these "glitches" is the same reason I don't want a specific map rules, all they do is add confusion. If you feel they are glitches, then you are well within your right to punish a player for it. I was simply stating that I would not, you, of course, may if you like.

- I WILL NOT overturn glitching bans that after review I believe were not what I define as glitching, EXCEPT when no warning was given (Then its a full overturn). I believe in my admins' judgement, and if s/he thinks that it is a glitch, I will not use my power to say that it is not.

[*Queen VenomousFate*]

I've just said my judgement, and I just thought that to make Mines of Moria balanced and fair these are just good rules to have :). I don't see why you are so reluctant to make specific rules, I guess for every single map it would get confusing but considering how popular this map is.....

You are free to use your judgement as I have stated above a few times. I was simply posting why I would not ban for them, you can ban as you see fit! :) :) :)

And the thing about specific rules is a general Steam Gamers policy. We have had numerous debates about adding specific rules to the prision break server, but every time we decide not to because the rules will simply be too confusing.

It would be impossible to reliably convey map specific rules to our players anyways.

[Shadowex3]

- I WILL NOT overturn glitching bans that after review I believe were not what I define as glitching, EXCEPT when no warning was given (Then its a full overturn). I believe in my admins' judgement, and if s/he thinks that it is a glitch, I will not use my power to say that it is not.

I'd rather you did.

[Killer]

I agree with luxzorz

[Cranks]

Glitching is getting annoying on this map. People don't seem to realise that we can still kicked and ban them. I just had to kick a supporter and 2 other's for glitching.

[LinksLife]

I think the only serious offense here is the Staircase issue with the speed boost. The only thing we can do in this instance is warn people/kick people who use it and/or wait for an official word/change from the map creator.

[*Queen VenomousFate*]

I'd rather you did.

I think you misconstrued what I meant (My fault, what I said wasnt meant to be absolute without exceptions, I am just a very absolute person, and things I say tend to sound that way). If a player can prove that he or she did not glitch, then it will of course be overturned. In any case when a player appeals a glitching ban, for something I believe wasn't a glitch, I will try and talk to the banning admin about it to see if we can remove the ban. It is my job to find order in what people do, not to overturn every admins bans with my own preferences.

Also, if a player is banned, that means he was warned first, meaning that he disobeyed an admin's reasonable command on 2+ occasions, which is something we frown upon.

Glitching bans are very short and are very rarely appealed as it is.

[Shadowex3]

No, I assure you it does not mean they were warned at all let alone on multiple occasions. What it means is that what one admin considers to be a part of the game (ask colon about rooftop escape's train sometime) another will ban you for INSTANTLY.

I've been playing here since it was boatescape, arctic, and a trainless extinction and that's how it's always been. It's extroardinarily rare for admins to be consistent, or to warn people.

[*Queen VenomousFate*]

No, I assure you it does not mean they were warned at all let alone on multiple occasions. What it means is that what one admin considers to be a part of the game (ask colon about rooftop escape's train sometime) another will ban you for INSTANTLY.

I've been playing here since it was boatescape, arctic, and a trainless extinction and that's how it's always been. It's extroardinarily rare for admins to be consistent, or to warn people.

If they were not warned the ban will be removed. I will take the word of a player with more weight than any SA. When I enter the appeal section I automatically become the players biggest advocate. I look for any way to help them get out of or lower their ban, assuming they can show good reason.

I think you are still mixing up what I said. What I meant is that while I can, I will not challenge any admin on what is a bannable glitch. I will not overturn a ban, JUST because I do not believe what they did was my definition of a glitch (Unless what they did was could not possibly meet anyones definition of a glitch). HOWEVER, I will overturn ANY ban that was not proceeded by at least one PERNSOnALIZED WARNING.

When I say OVERTURN, I mean completely remove. I have made it a policy to lower ANYONES ban who takes the time to write a respectful appeal (with the exception of hackers and 4+ offenders). So anyone who appeals a one day glitching ban will likely get it lowered to one hour.

[Shadowex3]

That makes more sense.

You're a rare man around here Venomous.

[*Queen VenomousFate*]

That makes more sense.

You're a rare man around here Venomous.

Who says i'm a man... This is the internet we are talking about...

[Doctordan]

Now Haggard and Venomous are women theres alot o chicks around here

[Shadowex3]

No girls on the internet, tits or gtfo, barrel roll, etc.

[Lux]

If they were not warned the ban will be removed. I will take the word of a player with more weight than any SA. When I enter the appeal section I automatically become the players biggest advocate. I look for any way to help them get out of or lower their ban, assuming they can show good reason.

Thats what I look to do too :high5:

I try and give players as many chances as I can, before it starts getting out of hand :crazy:

[*Queen VenomousFate*]

Sorry I didn't respond quickly, I was picking out my prom dress.

[SoulKeeper]

The protection ring needs to be larger...
I was once able to squeeze PAST it, and get to the door. Once the ring dropped, they had nowhere to go. They were ambushed on all sides. Quite unfair...

[Shadowex3]

There's actually an invisible wall on the other side of the protection ring, you probably glitched past that somehow.

[Lux]

Guys.....these things I've brought up have been fixed in the newest versions. If you want to discuss map issues that need to be fixed go to the fpsb page.

[Stompy Moose]

there is way too much glitching on this map..

[SoulKeeper]

there is way too much glitching on this map..
Not anymore.
I don't see what's wrong with it...

[mr_cap]

i think it should be rule breaking if u shoot the bucket into the well. it messes everyone up because it lets the zombies come to Balin's door much more quicker

[Drox]

Ive actually seen Admins not enforce the rules on this Map, but also its hard to catch most of em. Not to mention the new fix in this map fixed most of the normol glitches even tho there are still a few people can get around. Altho most of the time when the real rule breaking goes down when a admin isnt around, nobody usually cares except a few or just laugh about it and move on which can send the wrong message to the new players who show up.

[Drox]

i think it should be rule breaking if u shoot the bucket into the well. it messes everyone up because it lets the zombies come to Balin's door much more quicker


I dont think this should be a rule against this, because on a number of times this has saved me as a human from zombie overrun. I say let it happen, because aslong as you can hold the zombies at the door long enough it doesnt matter.

[Lux]

Guys most of the glitches in this thread have been fixed/made a lot harder.

The only glitches I can think of are being able to stand in mid air ontop of the protection ring and from time to time you can get naded/shot to the final bridge (but thats ct's fail, not the zombies).